What powerlevel should the books rally around? (and which should be powered up/down?)

[Scammel]

A core unit that better than almost all comparable elite units out there (Witch elves is the only good match though) while being cheaper? Sold. And Daemon players have the gall to call them overcosted.

Without the Herald, I'd say they're overcosted by a point or two. Gors with handweapons (which are widely regarded as being a point too expensive, though this is slowly changing with the release of more 8th books) are 66% of the cost, about as tough and with a similar or better damage output against most foes. Daemonettes seem to pay a lot for two stats (WS and I) that don't really matter that much, especially with today's chunkier units and step-up.

[Graxy]

Without the Herald, I'd say they're overcosted by a point or two

I agree with you, but I think that the herald is underpointed by about 20+ points considering the benefit that it gives to the unit, even more so in this edition where ASF on an I6 unit is basically free re-rolls, making them basically the perfect light infantry shredder. As far as units off daemonettes with heralds go, the points about even up, so can't really complain there.

[HalfBlood]

Not one I agree with though

Remember how Empire units is now paying for the avaibility of synergy from altars etc. in the list?

By that logic every Daemon unit but the screamers should be bumped up two points, because what makes Daemons OP are the absurd combos they can take.


Ever got hit by Slaanesh lore while the -2 LD banner is around? It aint damn funny thats for certain.

Im not even going to talk about Bloodletters, but if Daemonettes are undercosted then Im the King of Spain. A core unit thats better than almost all comparable elite units out there (Witch elves is the only good match though) while being cheaper? Sold! And Daemon players have the gall to call them overcosted.... I dont even...

Pink Horrors are oddball but all your other cores are insanely good value. You rly get an awful lot more for your points than any other army out there, and your core is actually the best part of your army! AAwesome!!!!! I know Empire, Beasts and VC players who'd envy you for that.


Daemons remain the most absurd army out there. Dark Elves have some rly broken stuff but at least they aint great at piercing armour. Daemons is a "have your cake and eat it" army

DaemonReign gave a completely fair adjustment, I have to agree with him on pretty muh every issue.

Your completely out of line, If you understood what he said instead of trolling. He claims to half the effectiveness of The great Icon of Despair which is the -2 LD banner.

Lore of Slannesh is pathetic since we can take any Lord from the rule book with a very cheap cost ( pretty great)

Daemonettes are so overcost.

Its people like you who should play daemons because all you do is complain about them and dont really understand their weaknesses. Learn to Play not to Complain.

But their us no need to keep this argument going you were the person who said HEY Beastman need a buff lol. They are a very balanced army, that some people may consider overpowered to a slight extent.

If you want to continue to troll daemons we have a perfect thread for you! http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...aking-the-game

[Wesser]

Without the Herald, I'd say they're overcosted by a point or two. Gors with handweapons (which are widely regarded as being a point too expensive, though this is slowly changing with the release of more 8th books) are 66% of the cost, about as tough and with a similar or better damage output against most foes. Daemonettes seem to pay a lot for two stats (WS and I) that don't really matter that much, especially with today's chunkier units and step-up.

Well compared to said Gor you have (assuming we say T4 is equal to 5+ ward which I dont think is the case)

- Higher WS
- Higher Ini (with that comes resistance to certain spells after all)
- Armour Piercing
- Fear
- Unbreakable (and the "crumbling" is so low as to be a joke in most cases)
- Better synergy with heralds and magic
- Higher Movement
- High noises wont make the daemonette run away. The Gor will

66% of the cost you say? Maybe the Gor is overcosted I dont know. Can't say youe xample proves anything looking objectively at it

[Wesser]

DaemonReign gave a completely fair adjustment, I have to agree with him on pretty muh every issue.

Your completely out of line, If you understood what he said instead of trolling. He claims to half the effectiveness of The great Icon of Despair which is the -2 LD banner.

Lore of Slannesh is pathetic since we can take any Lord from the rule book with a very cheap cost ( pretty great)

Daemonettes are so overcost.

Its people like you who should play daemons because all you do is complain about them and dont really understand their weaknesses. Learn to Play not to Complain.

But their us no need to keep this argument going you were the person who said HEY Beastman need a buff lol. They are a very balanced army, that some people may consider overpowered to a slight extent.

If you want to continue to troll daemons go to this thread http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...aking-the-game because their is alot of daemon trolling their.

You amuse me. I think I hit a soft spot

Oh and I disagree with you on the parts I understood of that. Dunno what the Beastmen thing you mention is about

[HalfBlood]

Nah its just people like you who should learn to play and not to complain.

The beastman part was against another person.

Everyone has their own opinion, some may just be wrong.

[Torga_DW]

Just out of interest wesser, in your local meta do you guys play allcomer lists or tailor for each opponent? Just curious.

[Wesser]

Nah its just people like you who should learn to play and not to complain.

The beastman part was against another person.

Everyone has their own opinion, some may just be wrong.

Then please consider that you may be wrong too eh?

How you turn this into a meaningless learn-to-play thing I dont know. I'm not complaining. I'm telling you that you have what I consider the most superb bulk-infantry shredder in game easily distancing gors, witch elves and any other comparable troops. I'm simply amazed you can call this fantastic unit undercosted. Maybe Daemon players are just spoiled a bit..

[Wesser]

Just out of interest wesser, in your local meta do you guys play allcomer lists or tailor for each opponent? Just curious.

All-comers, but noone is playing Beasts, Lizardmen or WoC.

[HalfBlood]

Then please consider that you may be wrong too eh?

How you turn this into a meaningless learn-to-play thing I dont know. I'm not complaining. I'm telling you that you have what I consider the most superb bulk-infantry shredder in game easily distancing gors, witch elves and any other comparable troops. I'm simply amazed you can call this fantastic unit undercosted. Maybe Daemon players are just spoiled a bit..

I believe Bloodletters are fair game. I feel Daemonettes,PB, and Horrors are all overcosted to an extent. I stated before Daemonettes should be recuded by 1 point, Horrors need to be completely reworked, my idea was if they are a level 4 wizard then they should auto channel you a power dice. And the Lore of Tz should be reworked. PB should be I2 and gain ASL to help protect against Initiative tests. I would like to see a point reduction here by 1 point.

You will not understand until you actually play daemons.

[Scammel]

At the risk of this getting de-railed a little:

- Higher WS
- Higher Ini (with that comes resistance to certain spells after all)
- Armour Piercing

All rather nice, but it doesn't really amount to a huge amount with a pretty paltry S of 3 and no easy way of boosting it that comes to mind. High I is undoubtedly useful against the likes of smallish cavalry units, but against decent sized blocks it's more or less irrelevant.

- Fear

Widely regarded as pretty useless in lots of situations.

Unbreakable (and the "crumbling" is so low as to be a joke in most cases)

Unbreakable is lovely on units that can take a slog. On Daemonettes I'd argue it's okay.

- Better synergy with heralds and magic

-High noises wont make the daemonette run away. The Gor will

Not really the case. Beastmen have utterly fantastic character synergy and easy access to high Ld and steadfast.

Higher Movement

Nice, but not particularly worth it as Daemonettes don't function any better or worse with or without the charge.

Overall, Daemonettes seem to pay a good chunk for frills that don't really make them much better than their counterparts and don't really hit that hard. Gors and other infantry have the right stats and synergies where it counts and don't pay particularly big premiums for stuff they don't need.

[Souppilgrim]

It blow my mind when people say daemons are fine because their worst core unit "daemonettes", are better than any foot troop in the empire army.

Back to the op's topic. VC is probably the level that all the new stuff should be at.

[Scammel]

Well, I'm not arguing that Daemons are fine because of the 'Nettes, but I don't think the 'Nettes themselves are much of an issue - I'll even go out on a limb and argue that Halberdiers are better for the cost.

[Graxy]

Lets lookat this realistically:

Bloodletters were intended to be the elite killer, but ended up is the everything killer. Their high strength, weapon skill and decent initiative, was supposed to outmatch that of elite units, and was found to be unbearable for less elite or horde units.

Daemonettes were intended to be the light infantry killer. With the herald, re-rolls to hit, 2 attacks and armour piercing makes this evident. If they were any higher strength, they would be broken as they could take down elite units as effectively as bloodletters.

Plaguebearers are supposed to be the cinderblock unit. They're meant to sit there, take hits efficiently and basically deny victory points while still being able to do a fair amount of damage. Over the edition transition, this was diminished quite a bit, however, they can still be effective.

Horrors are really just their to be a utility unit. They're there to be a bunker for a HoT while boosting his abilities a bit. Nothing else.

For their worth:
Bloodletters-Underpointed
Daemonettes-Correct pricing
Plaguebearers-Overpointed (Now. Were correctly priced)
Horrors-Overpointed

[Souppilgrim]

Well, I'm not arguing that Daemons are fine because of the 'Nettes, but I don't think the 'Nettes themselves are much of an issue - I'll even go out on a limb and argue that Halberdiers are better for the cost.

I'll trade ya.

[Echunia]

I think the 8th Edition books are all quite close in terms of how powerful they are, ogres are a bit stronger and Tomb Kings have some issues, but otherwise everything is pretty hunky dory there. The problem with Tomb Kings is not that their book is particularky weak, its that their rules were very badly designed, their achilles heel is total reliance on a very random magic phase, that level of reliance worked ok when their magic system was as reliable as it was last edition, but the absolute necessity of getting the desert wind spell off in order to get your army to do anything means they utterly fail when up against a strong dispel army, like High elves, Dwarfs or Lizardmen.

I agree that the internet wisdom that TK are weak is based on ignorant first impressions. I do however think that one of the major problems with TK competitiveness is not the magic phase but the special character reliance. Almost all the competitive builds are based around special characters, with the main culprit being Ramhotep. I personally believe that with special chars the list goes to normal power level and even a bit above.

Examples:

Ramhotep with multiple large snake units
Arkhan + lvl 4 so you get both death and light in combination with the above
Settra with double giant or similarly buffing multiple units with ws 7
Khalida + lots of archers (arguably only competitive in a 3 big units per army environment)

When they are taken away the list isn't as impressive but still not bad. This could easily be remedied by giving the reroll saves ability to normal necrotects and bumping their points a bit. Or making Lore of Nehekara optional or like the Maw for ogres (being able to take it on a low lvl caster instead of highest).

As for the rest, it's pretty simple really, I think empire and VC are a good benchmark.

[HalfBlood]

Bloodletters are meant as an elite killer. They pretty much are an elite killer. I have been playing Daemons alot in 8th, and hordes are one of the biggest daemon killers like Skaven/Beastman. Not to mention ASF/High Initiative like WoC/DE/HE. Their biggest flaw is they can get shot to bits before they even touch combat. Horde units do absolutely fine against letters.

Daemonettes like stated are overpriced for what they do.

PB are no where near effective lose 5/6 the unit by a purple sun in one turn because the other player irrist it.

Horrors are a waste of points because the HoT can always walk behind the letter units.


Bloodletters are about equal if not max 13 point a model.
Daemonettes are overpriced should be 11 point a model
PB need I 2 with ASL, point cost to 10-11
Horrors need something big, If they were 9 points a model I would consider them. My idea is to allow them to auto generate a Powerdice if they are a level 4 wizard with the addition of redoing the Lore of Tz

For their worth:
Bloodletters-Underpointed
Daemonettes-Correct pricing
Plaguebearers-Overpointed (Now. Were correctly priced)
Horrors-Overpointed

[Scammel]

I'll trade ya.

They're not mine to trade, but I'm pretty sure I'd prefer relatively cheap, sizeable S4 blocks with easy access to hatred and other support as opposed to what the 'Nettes offer for the price.

[The bearded one]

PB are no where near effective lose 5/6 the unit by a purple sun in one turn because the other player irrist it.

By that measure my saurus suck badly.

[HalfBlood]

Saurus are pretty bad, but you got Slanns + Temple Guard to make up for it.