What powerlevel should the books rally around? (and which should be powered up/down?)

[HalfBlood]

And then Jerry who just buts in to spam complains and startle us daemon players up decides.. Jerry get out, or atleast read the last 3 pages because we have gone over all your complaints.

Remember what I said before Learn to play its possible to counter Karios drop a purple sun on him at some point it gets annoying this is like your 3rd post and you keep making yourself look pathetic.

Who takes 100+ Bloodletters in games under 2,500?

Save us some time and instead of saying the exact same complaints read are counter arguments about 3 pages ago. I think I criticized you pretty well just like I am right now. Lrn2PLY

[The bearded one]

Who takes 100+ Bloodletters in games under 2,500?

many people

Lrn2PLY

Don't put a greater daemon in sight of a cannon

[HalfBlood]

We gonna start this again Bearded? Thats why I take Fateweaver...

Anyone who takes over 100+ Bloodletters must have no Special/Rare. It should be easy to counter a horde + a Greater Daemon.


This will be are official troll Daemon of Chaos Thread http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...aking-the-game

[The bearded one]

We gonna start this again Bearded? Thats why I take Fateweaver...

you do indeed, but the point is that you admonish others repeatedly with 'learn to play', while dismissing how to prevent your GD from being shot by a cannon, by taking a special character so you don't really have to do anything. After reading about political treatises and justifications during the Dutch revolt concerning the abjuration of the sovereign (heated discussion is the only thing preventing me from falling asleep, so keep it going ), I hereby appropriately relieve you of your right to tell others to 'learn to play'.

[Athlan na Dyr]

As to the nukes, in my experience the spells incoming are largely hexes and insta-kill stat tests, for which magic resistance does nothing. Although with it, the letters ward save is only 16% better against magic missiles.

... WHAT? Bloodletters are ridiculously survivable against ista-kill stat tests (they lose either 1/6th of the unit to dwellers or 1/3 to purple sun). Their higher starting point for stats also reduces the effectiveness of those hexes. Ergo, Bloodletters are one of the most resistant troops vs. magic.

Bloodletters are decent close combat units for core troops, but against other armies close combat troops that rely on quality over quantity, (like chosenstar, graveguard, etc) they're not my ideal unit for a horde.

All right buddy, now I know you're trolling. Lets do a little maths, k?

40 Grave Guard with GW vs. 40 Bloodletters (Equal Points)
Bloodletters strike first with 30 attacks. Hit with 20, wound with 13.33, GG get no saves, meaning 13.33 die, leaving 26.66 alive
Grave Guard strike back with 26.66 attacks. Hit with 13.33, wound with 11.11, Bloodletters save ~3.7, meaning ~7.4 die, leaving 32.6 Bloodletters

Bloodletters win by ~6 on kills alone

44 Grave Guard with GW vs 40 Bloodletters (48 point advantage to GG)
Bloodletters strike first with 30 attacks. Hit with 20, wound with 13.33, GG get no saves, meaning 13.33 die, leaving 30.33 alive
Grave Guard strike back with 30 attacks. Hit with 15, wound with 12.5, Bloodletters save ~4.2, meaning 8.33 die, leaving 31.66 Bloodletters

Bloodletters win by 5 on kills alone

44 Grave Guard with GW and Banner of the Barrows vs 40 Bloodletters (108 point advantage to the GG)
Bloodletters strike first with 30 attacks. Hit with 20, wound with 13.33, GG get no saves, meaning 13.33 leaving 30.33 alive
Grave Guard strike back with 30 attacks. Hit with 20, wound with 16.66, Bloodletters save 5.55, meaning 11.11 die, leaving 28.88 Bloodletters

Bloodletters win by 2.22 kills

Ergo, Bloodletters are a fantastic horde unit that walks over enemy elites like practically nothing else in the core section. Ward Saves are ridiculously good vs. enemy elites.

(from HalfBlood)
PB are no where near effective lose 5/6 the unit by a purple sun in one turn because the other player irrist it.

By same token daemonettes are ridiculously OP becasue of the mindrazor you can irrist
Bloodletters and their freakish ability to defy all manner of nuke spells (barring the Dreaded 13th) are the exception, not the norm
To cut it short, magic and the effects thereof are not a valid justification of points costs.

(more from HalfBlood)
Bloodletters are about equal if not max 13 point a model.
Daemonettes are overpriced should be 11 point a model
PB need I 2 with ASL, point cost to 10-11
Horrors need something big, If they were 9 points a model I would consider them. My idea is to allow them to auto generate a Powerdice if they are a level 4 wizard with the addition of redoing the Lore of Tz

Biggest thing you're missing here is
a) They're core
b) they're fast and resistant to everything (including losing combat)

Compare the Daemonic core troops to other core troops. Barring WoC, one of the three is far more killy then most things an 8th book can churn out in core (Savage Orc Big Uns being the exception, though animosity and 1 per army mitigate this somewhat), the middling two are far from shabby and the 5+ ward makes them all more resistant to any shooting or combat than anything else in the core section (again, barring WoC).
Considering the current trend of upping the cost of killy units in core (Ghouls, Halberdiers), I'd add another half of full point to your costs for Bloodletters, Daemonettes and Plaguebearers.
However, I will concede that the lack of other infantry units in the other sections of the daemon army does somewhat mitigate this, and your knowledge of your army is better than mine. So, I'll concede on the Daemonettes and Bloodletters.
I will also concede that I'm biased as a counts player, whose core consists of crap, crap, fast crap and Ghouls ,
I would, however, quite happily waltz into the realm of chaos, pick nurgle some flowers and offer my soul for the use of plaguebearers at 12 ppm in core.
Horrors definitely need something though.

Let me give you an example that bloodletters would have trouble with. I once faced an army whose main unit was a horde of 40 dark elf repeater crossbowmen. They put out iirc 40 shots per turn, and 40 at incoming charging units. Off the top of my head, thats ~20 kills, or two ranks of a bloodletter horde from one round of shooting and the incoming fire.

Assuming you're right on the number of kills (ceebs doing the maths right now) why not put another 20 bloodletters in your horde? There really isn't any scalar magic that kills them in significant numbers (a huge problem) so there isn't any real downside to doing so.
Plus Dark Elves are another very good book that is commonly regarded as OP. Compare the damage they take from shooting against one of the middle tier armies and use that as an example.

(from daemonreign)
Flamers - More or less good where they are.

*twitch* [Disclaimer: I hate Flamers, so assume the following is choc full of bias. I also hate fighty shooting units, such as the Hellcannon...]
You have got to be ******** me. Flamers are an absolute pain in my ****; a very good shooting unit with 2 wounds, T4, S5 and 2 attacks in skirmish formation all for the bargain basement cost of 35 ppm. No way in hell are they 'more or less good'. They are undercosted, no two ways about it. They can also kick the **** of anything you send in to stop them shooting you. There is a reason they are seen as a staple in any (uncomped) competitive daemons list, along with bloodletters and Master of sorcery Tzeentch heralds
/rage

[HalfBlood]

When I say learn to play its meant to show you to figure out how to counter a given unit instead of calling things overpowered/broken/OP OP. When an HE player brings Teclis half no-one wants to play him. Im the guy who gives it a shot. When the Skaven player brings the dual Grey Seer list Im his first opponent. You wanna know what I dont even complain I know armies may be stronger then others, however I look for ways to counter instead of complain... a.k.a Learn to Play not to Complain.

The idea to taking Fateweaver is to prevent that from happenin. Terrain is not a guranteed factor, and im not taking the risk that his cannon shot will miss. Fateweaver offers this protection, but at the same time provides the magical back-up which is necessary in daemon lists.

This will be are official troll Daemon of Chaos Thread http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...aking-the-game

[Torga_DW]

... WHAT? Bloodletters are ridiculously survivable against ista-kill stat tests (they lose either 1/6th of the unit to dwellers or 1/3 to purple sun). Their higher starting point for stats also reduces the effectiveness of those hexes. Ergo, Bloodletters are one of the most resistant troops vs. magic.

Rather obviously, its horses for courses. People won't waste spells on things the letters will get a 2+ stat check against. There are other ones, final transmutation comes to mind immediately.

They have decent (note decent) melee stats, therefore they're unaffected by hexes? er, no.

All right buddy, now I know you're trolling. Lets do a little maths, k?

40 Grave Guard with GW vs. 40 Bloodletters (Equal Points)


Ergo, Bloodletters are a fantastic horde unit that walks over enemy elites like practically nothing else in the core section. Ward Saves are ridiculously good vs. enemy elites.

again, faulty and/or poor statistical models. Thats nice in a vacuum, but GG will probably have shrieks as ranged before (and off the top of my head during) combat, and res spells during. Lets not forget the banner of the barrows. Or a lowly corpse cart. As malorian said earlier, you can't just look at 1 unit vs 1 unit in a vacuum, theres a whole army happening.

By same token daemonettes are ridiculously OP becasue of the mindrazor you can irrist
Bloodletters and their freakish ability to defy all manner of nuke spells (barring the Dreaded 13th) are the exception, not the norm
To cut it short, magic and the effects thereof are not a valid justification of points costs.

Magic isn't justified by points costs? lol

Biggest thing you're missing here is
a) They're core
b) they're fast and resistant to everything (including losing combat)

Sorry dude, but your idea of resistant seems different to mine (t3). Personally if i was looking for unbuffed melee muscle, i'd rather chaos warriors from core.

Compare the Daemonic core troops to other core troops. Barring WoC, one of the three is far more killy then most things an 8th book can churn out in core (Savage Orc Big Uns being the exception, though animosity and 1 per army mitigate this somewhat), the middling two are far from shabby and the 5+ ward makes them all more resistant to any shooting or combat than anything else in the core section (again, barring WoC).
Considering the current trend of upping the cost of killy units in core (Ghouls, Halberdiers), I'd add another half of full point to your costs for Bloodletters, Daemonettes and Plaguebearers.
However, I will concede that the lack of other infantry units in the other sections of the daemon army does somewhat mitigate this, and your knowledge of your army is better than mine. So, I'll concede on the Daemonettes and Bloodletters.

Yes, everything barring Woc. No exceptions. Except savage orc big uns. Oh and ogres. Off the top of my head. No exceptions though. :P

Assuming you're right on the number of kills (ceebs doing the maths right now) why not put another 20 bloodletters in your horde? There really isn't any scalar magic that kills them in significant numbers (a huge problem) so there isn't any real downside to doing so.
Plus Dark Elves are another very good book that is commonly regarded as OP. Compare the damage they take from shooting against one of the middle tier armies and use that as an example.

it was rough, but approximately correct. The reason you don't keep adding stuff to your army, is because theres a set points limit. Okay, lets try another middle tier army shooting example..... 1 helblaster volley gun.

*twitch* [Disclaimer: I hate Flamers, so assume the following is choc full of bias. I also hate fighty shooting units, such as the Hellcannon...]
You have got to be ******** me. Flamers are the devil incarnate; a very good shooting unit with 2 wounds, T4, S5 and 2 attacks in skirmish formation all for the bargain basement cost of 35 ppm. No way in hell are they 'more or less good'. They are undercosted, no two ways about it. They can also kick the **** of anything you send in to stop them shooting you. There is a reason they are seen as a staple in any (uncomped) competitive daemons list, along with bloodletters and Master of sorcery Tzeentch heralds
/rage

They're the only shooting unit daemons get in the army. And they're capped at 2 units of 6 until 3k points. You forgot to mention WS 2. They're good yes, but still have their counters.

[Drasanil]

Rather obviously, its horses for courses. People won't waste spells on things the letters will get a 2+ stat check against. There are other ones, final transmutation comes to mind immediately.

Leaving aside that the Lore of Metal is one of the least popular lores, who in their right mind would use the Lore of Metal against daemons?

[Don Zeko]

again, faulty and/or poor statistical models. Thats nice in a vacuum, but GG will probably have shrieks as ranged before (and off the top of my head during) combat, and res spells during. Lets not forget the banner of the barrows. Or a lowly corpse cart. As malorian said earlier, you can't just look at 1 unit vs 1 unit in a vacuum, theres a whole army happening.

Of course you can't, but you also can't take equal-point units and then assume that one side has an army supporting it and the other doesn't, which appears to be what you're doing. It's just as possible that the Letter's get support from Flamers, magic, or a Herald as it is for the Grave Guard to get help. Also, am I the only one who noticed that Daemonreign's post consisted of him asserting his opinions about fair point values for various units without evidence? I don't actually think Daemons are that bad in 7th (certainly no worse than DE or Skaven), but the quality of argument in their defense here is so poor that I can't help but point it out.

[Torga_DW]

Leaving aside that the Lore of Metal is one of the least popular lores, who in their right mind would use the Lore of Metal against daemons?

That depends on whether you're tailoring your army or making an allcomers list. Lores have to be chosen at army creation. Spells that can be picked at will have to be chosen at army creation. I'm not big on the tournament scene, but i'm fairly sure they used fixed lists there. Metal is a decent lore against high save armies.



<<Of course you can't, but you also can't take equal-point units and then assume that one side has an army supporting it and the other doesn't, which appears to be what you're doing. It's just as possible that the Letter's get support from Flamers, magic, or a Herald as it is for the Grave Guard to get help.>>

No, i'm assuming the support elements. Bloodletter herald will give an advantage in the first round of combat. Two units of flamers max until 3k. MoT MoS in a bunker sitting behind the bloodletters, ideally the bunker costing twice the points of the wizard to protect him from attacks of opportunity. Further wizards joining the bunker, or requiring new bunkers to be formed. Possible greater daemon caster, probably costing 1/4 of the total points. It starts adding up, and theres only so many options that provide actual synergy to the army.


<<Also, am I the only one who noticed that Daemonreign's post consisted of him asserting his opinions about fair point values for various units without evidence? I don't actually think Daemons are that bad in 7th (certainly no worse than DE or Skaven), but the quality of argument in their defense here is so poor that I can't help but point it out.>>

You're right, i made the assumption he was speaking from experience. Which came across as fairly close to my experience, the whole horror vs bloodletter controversy aside.

[Athlan na Dyr]

Rather obviously, its horses for courses. People won't waste spells on things the letters will get a 2+ stat check against. There are other ones, final transmutation comes to mind immediately.

They have decent (note decent) melee stats, therefore they're unaffected by hexes? er, no.

2 things.
1. How many people take lore of metal?
2. The hexes thing was more in regard to you comments about Horrors. Hexes affect everythin reasonably equally, but starting from S5 makes -1S a lot easier to cope with than S3

again, faulty and/or poor statistical models. Thats nice in a vacuum, but GG will probably have shrieks as ranged before (and off the top of my head during) combat, and res spells during. Lets not forget the banner of the barrows. Or a lowly corpse cart. As malorian said earlier, you can't just look at 1 unit vs 1 unit in a vacuum, theres a whole army happening.

The bloodletter could easily have Flamer support. The Resurrection I'll concede (though the same amount of PD used to do this could easily be used by the Daemon player for a range of buffs and debuffs. Raising is far from 'free', though still is a plus. Note that I also didn't include unstable for the GG), but I did include the Banner of the Barrows. The Corpse Cart makes no difference whatsoever (I3 is still less than I4). My point was that for their points and location in army selection, bloodletters are good and a very hordable unit, which you were trying to argue against

Magic isn't justified by points costs? lol

This was in reply to a poster stating that plaguebearers aren't worth their cost due to their susceptability to PSun and Pit of Shades. In turn, I'm replying that the potential debuffs or magic based damage that could be inflicted on a unit shouldn't really have that much of a bearing on how much that unit should cost

Sorry dude, but your idea of resistant seems different to mine (t3). Personally if i was looking for unbuffed melee muscle, i'd rather chaos warriors from core.

5++ ward is better than heavy armour against everything at a higher strength than 3. For elite units of S5 or S6 in combat, this is roughly equivalent to a 3+ or 2+ armour save. Explain to me how this isn't good protection.

Yes, everything barring Woc. No exceptions. Except savage orc big uns. Oh and ogres. Off the top of my head. No exceptions though. :P

Did forget ogres (Sorry). Savages are both frenzied, 1 per army and have a large drop off in damage after the first turn.
The rest of the updated books don't have anything near bloodletter level and are paying a premium for their fighty core units.

it was rough, but approximately correct. The reason you don't keep adding stuff to your army, is because theres a set points limit. Okay, lets try another middle tier army shooting example..... 1 helblaster volley gun.

Its core. You've got to fill it up with something...
Of course, this does vary with points limits (I'm generally 3k). Maybe its different for you, I'll happily concede on that.

Hellblaster, at Long range (>12" i think) average of 15 shots (max/ 2) per turn at S5 (i think) BS 3
meaning roughly 5 hits, leading to ~3 dead bloodletters.

They're the only shooting unit daemons get in the army. And they're capped at 2 units of 6 until 3k points. You forgot to mention WS 2. They're good yes, but still have their counters.

Again, I freely admit that I'm biased against them.

[Souppilgrim]

As an empire player I would like to complain about how cannons killing GD's is being overstated. Sure you can kill them with cannons, if you don't misfire, have line of sight, don't overshoot, don't undershoot, don't roll a 1 to wound, the daemon player doesn't make his ward save, and you roll decent on your D6 wounds....which probably takes 2 shots that overcome all those challenges. Yes cannons are a nice option and are a threat, but they don't autokill anything, including GD's with ward saves.

[Torga_DW]

1. How many people take lore of metal?
2. The hexes thing was more in regard to you comments about Horrors. Hexes affect everythin reasonably equally, but starting from S5 makes -1S a lot easier to cope with than S3

1. I guess it depends on your meta. I see it a fair bit, but then we have high armour saves in play.
2. True, but i was assuming this was a continuation of the discussion, where the bloodletter horde had a tzeentch bunker with life healing it. More Heralds could be added for more spell options, but then more horrors are needed to protect them, increasing their cost. Even with 20 horrors in the bunker, i'd be thinking about hitting them with fiends, kitties or whatever else fast hitty stuff i had.

The bloodletter could easily have Flamer support. The Resurrection I'll concede (though the same amount of PD used to do this could easily be used by the Daemon player for a range of buffs and debuffs. Raising is far from 'free', though still is a plus. Note that I also didn't include unstable for the GG), but I did include the Banner of the Barrows. The Corpse Cart makes no difference whatsoever (I3 is still less than I4). My point was that for their points and location in army selection, bloodletters are good and a very hordable unit, which you were trying to argue against

Actually, i was saying they weren't the no-brainer choice that the netlist has painted them to be. As i said before, they're still t3. Anything with decent initiative (like elves) who use a lore like shadows (also elves in my experience) will strike first with their basic troops, and do a good amount of damage in the trade-off. 5++ is an average of 2 wounds saved out of six, thats good on cheap units (like empire with a warrior priest), but i wouldn't write home about it. In fact, i think thats a good comparison, letters + herald vs statetroops and warrior priest.

This was in reply to a poster stating that plaguebearers aren't worth their cost due to their susceptability to PSun and Pit of Shades. In turn, I'm replying that the potential debuffs or magic based damage that could be inflicted on a unit shouldn't really have that much of a bearing on how much that unit should cost

I disagree, as magic is one of the main phases of the game, and a good many armies get access to the rulebook lores.

5++ ward is better than heavy armour against everything at a higher strength than 3. For elite units of S5 or S6 in combat, this is roughly equivalent to a 3+ or 2+ armour save. Explain to me how this isn't good protection.

Okay, a 5++ will succeed 2 times out of six. 1/3. A 2+ hit by a S5 will save 3 times out of six. 1/2. And against lowering S values, the odds of an armour save get higher. Against attacks that don't allow a save, yes a ward is better. Against attacks that may not even modify a save, that 2+ or 3+ is better. For core troops, daemons are pretty expensive, being roughly comparable in price to special choices in other armies. But aside from the odd greater daemon (with all that comes with it), or bloodcrushers (who i think are greatly overpriced compared to the likes of mournfangs or dgk), there really is no 'next level up' in infantry.

Did forget ogres (Sorry). Savages are both frenzied, 1 per army and have a large drop off in damage after the first turn.
The rest of the updated books don't have anything near bloodletter level and are paying a premium for their fighty core units.

Well, with empire in mind (its the last book i was reading). You can get 2 halbadiers for every bloodletter, and give them a warrior priest and captain for about the same cost as the letter herald. Potentially splitting those core costs into detachments, which again potentially can counter charge the letters.

Its core. You've got to fill it up with something...
Of course, this does vary with points limits (I'm generally 3k). Maybe its different for you, I'll happily concede on that.

True. My point was, with the innate synergies that come with them, horrors have always had a better track record for me. I tend to play 2k and less, which yes i can see would make a difference in army comp.

Hellblaster, at Long range (>12" i think) average of 15 shots (max/ 2) per turn at S5 (i think) BS 3
meaning roughly 5 hits, leading to ~3 dead bloodletters.

I would average it by dice, halving to 3 (6) x3 = 18. 5+ at long range, 6 hits. 4 dead roughly, not much difference i guess. But if it gets a second shot at close range, 6 dead, for a total of 10, or 1 rank. For the cost of a 10 man rank of letters.
Add an engineer for +7 letters, and it gets even better results.

Again, I freely admit that I'm biased against them.

At this point, i'd like to apologize to all and sundry. I've been getting worked up, when i was really just intending to have a friendly discussion with everyone. I just tend to do better with horrors over bloodletters, thats all.

edit: minor typos

[fubukii]

Why does everyone always ignore the fact daemons usually rely on level 2s for the majority of their spell casting, there they get easily dispelled in comparison to other armies magic? I mean really NO one thinks this a huge set back, but daemon players? Really??????????????? Harder to cast buffs/hexes and dispel your buffs and hexes, thats A significant advanatage!

THis is only not the case is you take kairos who is usually banned or a 600 pt loc who sucks for his cost, or a GUO/keeper who can not fit both max gifts and level 4 in 2500, so making it even more unlikely.

Lets look at my typical 2500 competitive daemon army

Hok - Aok bsb
2 HOT, mos 1 spell breaker, 1 winged horror. Winged horror is general. 1 uses lore of metal or shadow other uses light.
2 x 40 blood letters full cmd. 1 icon d6 charge range
40 plague bearers with reroll wound banner ( i actually prefer these over a 3rd letter unit due to the benefits of lore of light buffs and the reroll wound banner is nice)
5 furies
2 x 1 fiends
6 flamers.

Thats 2500 points. If oyu want a greater daemon, lose a 40 man unit, and a spell caster. If you want a bunker for the wizards, gotta lose the flamers. LD8 MAX. BSB forced into a combat unit, (unless you buy a 240 pt bunker and give it to hot, then you wont have 3 big blocks)

Notice how you dont get much out of the daemon lists as people claim?

Sure 2 units of 40 letters rock, but if i do the other options suggested you can easily overhwlem/redirect 2 combat units and get flanks etc. they are great in a vacuum but on paper its not so peachy

[Athlan na Dyr]

(@ Torga_DW) eh, don't worry about it. I always get worked up when fighty and shooty units come up.
To be honest you've been very civil. Its more halfblood and his (from what I can gather) opinion that a top 5 army is balanced .

Really its bloodletters, some gifts, flamers and the SC's that are the problems with daemons (for me). The rest is fine or in need of a leg up.

Moving on?

(@fubukii) experiences of daemon players who just six dice dwellers or some other crap. And multiple scrolls for defense.

[fubukii]

Multiple scrols how many hot are they taking surely 2 is usually the norm, and if they both go MOS/spell breaker they are slow and not to hard to hunt down with scouts or fliers, or single out with death magic (ld8). If they are on discs they are super easy to shoot out of the sky. 6 dice dwellers is great then you miscast lose the magic phase, possibly the wizard, the spell and many other ridiculous things that can happen. What if i 6 dice and it doesnt IF? Only a 1/4 chance, then he can just throw 5-6 dice at it with his +2 over you to dispel or just scroll it now making my entire magic phase a waste. Hoping for a 1/4 chance to cast a spell successfully is not the best plan. I f you get above average roll on the winds this is more likely, as say i roll a 5 and a 5, ill have more dice then him, and should get spells off. By the same token though i could roll 6 and 1, or 6 and 2 so its tough to say and very random.

[Athlan na Dyr]

Merely replying out of my own experience playing daemons. Admitedly, the (one) Daemon's player that I play against is an *******/ WAAC, so I'm not used to someone who cared mightily about miscasting/doing much in his magic phase other than trying to f me over with a nuke spell (bar flesh to stone and throne to mitigate those miscasts). He also uses the scribes (at least I think its the scribes...) for more dice and Rules Lawyers that, because he's gaining loremaster from an item, he doesn't lose spells (referencing Arkhan the Black and his perma LVL 5 regardless of how many power drains he suffers).

But if I let go of my bias, yes it is a big disadvantage non GD players suffer.
Out of interest, how do you counter just having a LVL 2? Or do you use GD's?

[Torga_DW]

Moved to my tablet, so replies will be short if at all. Forum seems pretty bad now, is this a tablet thing? Anyhoo, I dont know about top five, but I would agree that daemons are above average, at the very least at ogre levels. I wouldnt call them broken or OP though. Just my 2 cents.

[DaemonReign]

Moving on?

Hm.. Yes, but where-to?

I've been at work all night and I wasn't imagining that there'd be four pages of ranting and raving seemingly sparked by my little rundown of Daemons on the first page. I agree that we've probably exhausted this subject. Some posters on 'each' side of the fence have been getting a little bit too heated up here, which is common practice here on Warseer of course, but I'll just make the humble notation that it's just as wrong to claim Daemons are super-duper broken filthy cheese, as it is just plain wrong to describe Army Wide Wardsave as litterally nothing. Come on halfblood, I agree with the basic premise of what you're saying but particularly in this environment you must know yourself that you're coming on a little strong.

I am happy to see though that by-and-large there seems to be at least some awakening to the role of Daemons in this new Edition. Only a year ago I believe this entire thread would have been a monotonous barrage of 'hate-mails' after someone making a post like the one I made on page 1.

But we've gotten a bit off topic. Or a bit too specific here. I think the question posed by the OP ("What Powerlevel should the books rally around?") is very easy to answer, and impossible to answer at the same time.
What I can say is that they've been pretty good so far - depending on how some 'synergies' in the new Empire book are FAQ:ed (the wagons and the Detachment/Steadfast mess) Empire might actually present a slight derail from an otherwise pretty consistant and 'even' powerlevel of books.

What I mean to say here is - and everyone who's not put me on their ignore list have probably seen me do this rant before - that the Core Mechanics of 8th Ed are just dynamic to a point where there's actually room for a whole lot more 'differences' in terms of pure number-crunching 'power' compared to how things were in 7th. This means that - and I stress I don't mean this as offense to the topic starter! - the question posed in this thread becomes a bit elusive, if not meaningless.
We can say that the OnG Book should be the benchmark, or the Ogre Book, or the Empire Book... it doesn't really matter.

What I think we can all agree on, though, is that we do not wish to re-live the End of 7th Edition once more. We simply do not want that last couple of books to spin off in a vicious cycle of 'discounts' and fluff-oriented boosts.
It might be hard for some of you to grasp, but I love my Daemons, I've painted a 30k Legal Army of them, I'm absolutely nuts about them. But that doesn't mean I don't want a fair game. That doesn't mean I don't want my friends to have fun playing against my models.

The little rundown of Daemons (that got reposted on last page even) is a very rough, and I think fair, account of 'how they should be redone'. With the same objective mindset, it's not too difficult to see what some other races would be like:

Dwarves - Probably infantry pointdrops across the board, more expensive WMs, oh god this is an old book so much to be done really.. But unlike Daemons they don't have the equivalents of The Masque, Despair Icon, Siren Song, or 25pts Master of Sorcery (and that's just a fact, whether you love Daemons or not).
Dark Elves - Lots of stuff undercosted by a point or two (WitchElves, ReapeterCrossbows, SpearElves probably), and even though I have no problem personally with the Pendant and the Dagger and the "no limit" on Power Dice used I simply suspect all those things are Ghosts of Editions Past.
...
Well, I could go on I suppose.. My basic 'answer' to the question posed in this thread is basically: Keep it up GW!
- Keep revamping the books for 8th Edition with respect for the individual lore and mindfullness of the 'total meta'.
- Keep staying true to the Soul of the Game (beer and pretzels!) while at the same time allowing score-card nerds to have their fun.

Well I have gone on long enough. Thanks for reading.

EDIT
@Athlan Na Dyr: The guy is CHEATING. Being Loremaster doesn't make you immune to losing spells from miscasts at all. That's not rules-lawyering dude.. It's just plain and simple CHEATING.

@Torga_ GW: *lol* I get the same crap on my 'tablet'. So yeah, it's not the Forum that's gone all "hospital look" it's just you.

[Echunia]

What I mean to say here is - and everyone who's not put me on their ignore list have probably seen me do this rant before - that the Core Mechanics of 8th Ed are just dynamic to a point where there's actually room for a whole lot more 'differences' in terms of pure number-crunching 'power' compared to how things were in 7th. This means that - and I stress I don't mean this as offense to the topic starter! - the question posed in this thread becomes a bit elusive, if not meaningless.
We can say that the OnG Book should be the benchmark, or the Ogre Book, or the Empire Book... it doesn't really matter.

I agree with your general assessment of daemons, the only real problems are a couple of points and cheap SC.

But I must disagree with your statement above. In 7th mathhammer could be thrown out of the window because everything depended on the charge. A miss judgement of distance could make your theoretically unbeatable buss die instantly from a charge.
Where as in 8th we fight on initiative. This means that both sides will get a fair chance to strike in almost every situation. This lends itself to mathhammer because the situations calculated will occur regardless of who charges (barring cav and what not). So because of the core mechanics of 8th, mathhammer is more reliable. The only real disturbance of mathhammer in 8th is magic, which is important but nowhere near as important as charging was in 7th.