What powerlevel should the books rally around? (and which should be powered up/down?)

[HalfBlood]

My private gripe with Siren Song is mostly philosophical:
I don't like that it "takes over" the opponant's Charge Sub Phase with no way of 'dispelling it'.
If it - for example - only worked against Charges that had already been declared I'd concider it quite a nice Gift actually (a whole lot less powerfull of course, but that's really just a side note here).

With no hesitation they will remove Siren Song.

[Torga_DW]

I have no problems with them removing some options, they always do. I just hope that what we end up with is at least viable, with different builds like we have now.

[Malorian]

With no hesitation they will remove Siren Song.

I don't know about that... and for the record I would rather deal with SS than the leadership bomb junk they have.

Each of the gods needs something special, and forcing you to charge at least lets me fight compared to making me fail fear tests, break, and get run down.

[DaemonReign]

You're right TBO. Dear lord.. The difference between raising the cost of Flamers to 40pts, or raising their cost by 20% is not big at all. Either way, it comes down to opinion and guesswork in the end. I've actually encounted players who don't rate Flamers too highly at all. Not saying such players are more or less right compared to those that concider them completely broken. Now I've got about 40 Flamers and we play big enough games that we just *ignore* those "Grand Army" (3k) Restrictions onf Rare Choices - and I can honestly say that I've never used all of them, not once, in fact one or two units of 5 is my preference. And in more 'normal' game sizes, which was a long time ago (almost 7th Ed along ago to be honest) I only loaded up multiple Flamer units when playing MonoTzeentch or when I knew I was facing Dark Elves.
- Not strictly because Dark Elves deserved the worst I could bring, but because their generally low Toughness + Hydras lends itself well to Flamers.
Agains Dwarves (another common opponant) I don't bring Flamers at all. With the introduction of Mangler Squigs they'll see more playtime against OnG I suppose..
It's one of those units I see described on the interwebz as a "no-brainer" but I've just never seen that myself, so to speak, not to diminish other people's experiences but all I'm saying is, well, it comes down a lot to personal experience.

Demons generally fight better than undead and have a ward save, so would be a bit more insulated from instability than undead sans raising.
If there is a real gripe I have with the VC book is that Steadfast BSBs Ld tests or Wards weren't applied against crumbling

- I agree that it's crazy that Undead can't benefit from Steadfast (other than cancelling it), and it's funny that their BSB is so 'meaningless'. Before the new VC book my group houseruled that VC "Steadfast" allowed them to 'ignore Crumbling', and that was quite OTT. So we softened it down to saying that Steadfast Skellies (for example) would only Crumble half as much as normally - and that worked pretty good as prior to their new book VC simply didn't have the Power Dice to feul their much needed magic phase (in our experience).
Now, however, I simply don't think you can write their abilities to raise stuff off like that though.
But the main thing here is strictly 'philsophical'. Daemons are not Undead. I'd say every other alternative (assuming Instability is changing in some way) is preferable to making them Unstable. I really mean that. Bring back the autopopping if breaking their unmodified leadership. Restrict Inspiring Presence (and even hold your ground) on a Mark basis. Lower their general leadership (again). Anything except the Unstable rule.
Instability is good though. It's basically Unstable (Unbreakable) with the good chance of mitigating damages from bad CR. And naturally it should be 'paid' for. And it is paid for with the exception of an extreme minority of units in the book.

Well we'll see what happens..

@ Malorian - Fair enough. But I still say Siren Song at least needs a pretty hefty revamp. And Daemons being able to deal -4 LD without Hexes is too much as well. The main problem, as I said earlier, as I see it is that it's so easy to obtain without having to forego other good things in the Army. If - for example - you basically had to go MonoSlaanesh in order to deal out penalties like that, together with any non-Slaanesh Daemons not benefitting from the General's IP, then I think it would both easier for opponant's to accept and frankly more fun for Daemon Generals too.

[tmarichards]

A single Siren Song isn't too bad (it's been around long enough that most people not only know about it, but have faced it enough that they have at least an idea of what they can do against it), but when you start taking multiples of them it gets a bit silly. As with plenty of other 7th edition Gifts/Items, a goodly points hike would be in order, or at the very list a restriction on duplicate gifts.

My biggest gripe is that Daemons can get Loremaster on a level 2 for so few points. As a general rule, I am very much against anyone (barring a small handful of exceptions) being able to know a whole rulebook Lore- army book lores I don't mind so much, but Loremaster on rulebook lores doesn't do it for me. If it just gave 2 spells that would be fine (it'd bring it into line with other hero level mages, with a bit more flexibility than most because you get 8 Lores to choose from), but the entire lore for half the points of most level 4 mages is a bit off. In my opinion, the extra spells definitely outweigh the casting/dispelling buff.

[DaemonReign]

@tmarichards:
I think that we're talking about Tzeentch Daemons here. If anyone should ever have access to Loremaster it's them.
That being said, you're right of course, Master of Sorcery should be 50pts - period. Double the cost as well as preventing that Herald from taking Any other Gifts what-so-ever (like Wings for example).
Removing the ability all-together though I'd personally be opposed to. I guess you could, but then you'd have to allow said Herald to buy two more Magic Levels at the very least.

[RugbySkin]

Demon Players 1, 2, 3 and 4, ladies, your all pretty. (Said for comedic effect. Because statistically, the odds are not in your favor in that regard. Yer arguing about plastic dolls on an internet forum)

As for the topic. I say they just need to keep going along with the tone they've set with 8th edition so far. Love my Vamps and my Tomb Kings. And people saying they're gawd awful are just unwilling to change how they play. (or are someone who've played against someone who's unwilling to change). The only thing I'd wish they'd change is the magic items. not the number of the but the quality. They always put one 80ish point "THE GAWD WILL LOOK UPON YOU AND DESPAIR" type weapon no one in their right mind would ever take cause youo ain't buying the Heavy +4 ward armor along with it, and a bunch of bound spell items. That's what my Casket of Souls/Corpse Cart/Coven Throne is for, how many magic dice do the developers think we get? Cause I'm usually rolling with 5.

[DaemonReign]

Not understanding your comedic entry RugbySkin. haha
I mean seriously: I don't understand it. It's probably a reference to something that'd make me go "Aha *lol*" if you explained it, but anyway whatever I'm sure you meant no harm.

I agree that they should keep the 'tone' they've set so far. When it comes to the Magic Items I actually do think it sucks that there's so few army-specific ones. VC at least got to keep some Powers which was a damn relief.

When it comes to VC specifically I really like that book (it's an Army I have some experience with actually, by the way) - my only minor gripe is that I think the Special Rules for the Mortis Engine are a little bit too wordy and convoluted somehow.

[Athlan na Dyr]

Blasphemy. The Mortis Engine is sex on a spirit horde





seriously though, I agree with you. On both points actually.

[RugbySkin]

Oh no. I meant harm.

And I'm all about the Mortis Engine. The dark aura wording coulda been cut in half, but I usually have it far the frik away from combat. If it goes into combat, I done screwed something up. Altho I wonder if this is a trend that's going to continue. Each army getting their large centerpiece model and have it have more special rules than the army.

[DaemonReign]

Oh no. I meant harm.

Right.
Care to explain how?

[Phazael]

With no hesitation they will remove Siren Song.

Doubtful, since Slaanesh has had it in some form since the beginning. Loremaster on Tzeench Heralds will probably be gone in the next book, however, if the VC book is any indication.

As for it taking over a phase, there are a lot of things that do something to the enemy without any defense allowed, Siren just screws wit the almighty deathstar, so its second on peoples hate list next to uberkilly spells. Pro Tip: No one tells you what order you have to charge things in or how many units to send in. If you are not supporting your units during deployment, you _should_ be having problems during the game, Siren or not. The 8th edition charge mechanics have made it significantly less powerful against someone who brings a balanced list.

[Phazael]

20% up would be 42pts, a fairly small increase.

So, you would make them cost one less than a Lead Beltcher? Yeah, going to have to call shennanigans on that one. For one more point the Lead Beltcher has:

More Range, but less BS- Wash
One more Attack and a stomp for one less S- Advantage Beltcher
Impact Hits on the charge- Advantage Beltcher
Immune to Stomps- Adv Beltcher
Does not Skirmish- Major Adv Flamer
Armor Piercing Shots- Adv Beltcher
No Flaming Attacks- Wash, any peg mounted hero with the Dragon Helm owns flamers
One more WS- Adv Beltcher
No Ward, but one more wound- Wash
No ITP- Mostly Adv Flamer
Is in the Special Slot- Major Adv Beltcher

Lead Beltchers sure would get a lot for that one point if flamers went up to 42 in cost!

Seriously, in the age of the deathstar (and Dreaded 13th), flamers are not really a problem anymore. Most people who take them now do it to bunker a Tzeench herald without having to buy Horrors.

[The bearded one]

I wasn't advocating (necessarily) the 20% increase, just pointing out that the difference between increasing them to 40 points and increasing them by 20% is minimal.

[DaemonReign]

Loremaster on Tzeench Heralds will probably be gone in the next book, however, if the VC book is any indication.

I know what you mean here. I'm not sure that 'indication' is too strong though. Different army all-together.
It depends on how fluff-oriented the ultimate Designer is. Tzeentch Daemons should have the kind of access to Magic that makes other wizards pale in comparison.
Here's to hoping they double the cost of Master of Sorcery (or the equivalent 'mechanic') but leave the option.

As I've said before, nerfing stuff is one thing but nobody wants a book written by someone who actually 'hates' the race they're modifying.

[Athlan na Dyr]

Eh, if it was changed to something like:

the wizard may generate spells from one of the 8 rulebook lores and choose the spells they generate

then I think (with a small price rise) MoS really would be perfectly fine. Represents magical mastery and choice, whilst still limiting them a bit more due to their wizard level
Add in an option to make tzeentch heralds level 3 (and maybe four if they are moved to the lord slot as a result) and it would seem perfectly fitting to me, except for the whole 'tzeentch is random'.

thoughts?

[DaemonReign]

thoughts?

Your idea isn't bad. It's got good aim for the actual 'value' and everything. In the discussions I've had on this issue what I concider the 'best idea' I've seen so far looks like this:

Herald of Tzeentch - Leave him as is, increase basecost to account for Locus of Tzeentch being better now.
Split the current Master of Sorcery into a set of different Gifts:
Gift #1 'Loremaster' - 30pts - Bestows the caster with Loremaster (all spells) of whatever Lore it is using.
Gift #2 'Master of Sorcery - 20pts - May choose one BRB Lore, with random Spell-selection.

As you can see, the 'net total' cost of getting today's equivalent of Master of Sorcery would be 50pts (hence maxing out the allowance of the Herald), while you'd also create a dynamic set of choices 'in-between' like for example paying 30pts for getting the Full Tzeentch Lore, or 20pts for getting 2 Randomly Determined spells from the BRB.

As tempting as it is to up the possible magic levels of the Herald of Tzeentch, I would say it's better to let it remain at Level 2 both for the sake of balance - and because this creates a nice speciality that only our Lords can reach.

I do believe, however, that Heralds of Slaanesh and Nurgle should have the option of buying "up to" 2 Magic Levels, and the Daemon Prince (amongst all the changes needed for this sad profile) should naturally have the opion of going all the way to Level 4 (at the very least if getting the Mark of Tzeentch).

[Athlan na Dyr]

the 'extra levels' thing was there as a way to get one in without a GD/ in games of 2000 points without a large unit of horrors. The daemon prince fulfilling this role instead sounds a lot better though.
And I agree, the two way split of the current Master of Sorcery looks a lot better than mine.

[Phazael]

I know what you mean here. I'm not sure that 'indication' is too strong though. Different army all-together.
It depends on how fluff-oriented the ultimate Designer is. Tzeentch Daemons should have the kind of access to Magic that makes other wizards pale in comparison.
Here's to hoping they double the cost of Master of Sorcery (or the equivalent 'mechanic') but leave the option.

As I've said before, nerfing stuff is one thing but nobody wants a book written by someone who actually 'hates' the race they're modifying.

They have been slowly eradicating anything with loremaster like abilities in the newer books, outside of the special characters. In fact, the only model that actually gained more spells were Warrior Priests and those are bounds. It is my firm belief that Tz heralds will, at best, get something along the lines of a gift that just gives them access to a basic book lore, identical to the one in the VC book. I also think that Horror blocks will probably revert back to just having bound powers or perhaps a shooting attack of sorts like they did in prior versions of the army. Letting DoC have a L4 in their core seems to be a major source of angst for a lot of people and GW has shown a tendancy to yank stuff that people are complaining about, eg. the VC Regen Banner, VC loremaster generals, Empire bonus dispell dice, and so on.

[DaemonReign]

Yes I see the same tendencies as you do Phazael. Not ignorant of anything you're saying. All though it ain't over till the fat lady sings.
- VC losing Loremaster Generals. Well they should never had have them - the fact that there was inflation with these kind of things in 7th Ed doesn't make it necessarily wrong. A fairly costed access to 'Loremaster' (i.e. 50pts) is something that Tzeentch Daemons ought to have even if it made them the only non-SC in the entire game to have that. I know saying something like that is asking for trouble of this Forum, but a Designer with even the slightest sense of background and integrity wouldn't compromise with that.

I don't think there's necessarily a new policy of actually listenning to whining - and I certainly hope there isn't because that'd be a road to hell paved with the best of intentions. Like people complaining about Horrors in 8th Edition - mmyeah like that's worth even a serious thought ('It isn't really good but it's different so let's start the whinefest!'). I am probably slightly biased, but with Daemons in particular (as I've pointed out up-thread) all though the 'whining' has historically been somewhat warranted it seems when the crowd gets going they sort of miss the trees for the forrest. Like Instability isn't the problem - 25pts Loremasters are... Bloodletters isn't the problem - the Despair Icon is.. That sort of thing.

VC Regen Banner got removed. Then again, almost everyone expected a significant point-increase to Grave Guard (more or less joint with the removal of the Regen flag) and look what we got: You could almost argue they got cheaper. And it's not like VC was 'nerfed' (as a whole) either. Ghouls got some wierd kneejerk hike but that's the only instance I can really think of in this edition, so far.

Empire's automatic Dispel Dice from last edition isn't really an example - that mechanic was intrinsically tighed to the previous Magic Phase and those Priests 'slipped through the net' merely on account of not being proper wizards. And compared to stuff like the new Detachment rules (and other things) I'd venture to say that Army has certainly been 'buffed' as a whole.

But again, I see where you're coming from. Daemons can get anything from the 'best case scenario' (fixed internal balance, surgical fixes of OP details) to the 'sum of all fears' (making them a bland, generally overcosted 'elite undead' army with a bunch of fluff that doesn't translate onto the tabletop). We can only wait and see.