What powerlevel should the books rally around? (and which should be powered up/down?)

[The bearded one]

Saurus are concidered a bit underpriced by many.

[Torga_DW]

myself, i would rate daemonettes with herald at around high elf spearmen levels. Very comparable.

[Bob Arctor]

Daemonettes vs HE Spearmen is probably a fair comparison.

Personally, as a player of both Beastmen and Daemons, I'd much rather have the Gors over the Daemonettes. Way more effective for their points once primal fury kicks in, and vastly superior with just a single casting of Wyssans on them.

I'm not a fan of the concept of "tiers", even though I can't deny some armies are inherently stronger than others. I guess the ideal comparison should be Orcs & Goblins as they usually come out somewhere in the middle.

I certainly don't like the idea suggested earlier that Wood Elves/Brets be boosted to above the rest to give them "their time in the sun". I remember playing against them in 6th ed and early 7th and as far as I'm concerned they've had it already.

[Souppilgrim]

They're not mine to trade, but I'm pretty sure I'd prefer relatively cheap, sizeable S4 blocks with easy access to hatred and other support as opposed to what the 'Nettes offer for the price.

you mean unbreakable, easy access to ASF, better defense and...nevermind. Keep in mind you are comparing some of daemons worst options to some of empires best. I'm probably wasting both of our time.

[Mirbeau]

This is a thread about power levels, so apologies if this seems out of context.

I feel the vast majority of the armies can compete on a fairly even footing. That's not the problem (for me)
Even within (I'd say the majority) of these externally balanced books - internal balance is somewhat askew - and I think that more of a problem than 'over-all' power levels. Beastmen are a great example of this - their toughest lists can take on anybody - but there is an awful lot of units deemed worthless by their players, which is a shame. I do think the newer books are doing well on this front mind.

[The bearded one]

myself, i would rate daemonettes with herald at around high elf spearmen levels. Very comparable.

I'd rate daemonettes slightly higher. A 5+ wardsave is better than a 5+ armoursave after all, 2 attacks per model better than a spear (although the extra rank for the high elves does sort of even that one out), and armour piercing better than no armourpiercing.

Not to mention with I6 daemonettes would actually deprive high elves of their rerolls.

[theunwantedbeing]

Somewhere around my post count is an appropriate level of power.

[The bearded one]

Somewhere around my post count is an appropriate level of power.

it's over 9000!

[Bob Arctor]

Daemonettes are I5 actually, and they need the Herald for both units to have asf (which costs more points) so it looks fairly even to me.

[HalfBlood]

I'd rate daemonettes slightly higher. A 5+ wardsave is better than a 5+ armoursave after all, 2 attacks per model better than a spear (although the extra rank for the high elves does sort of even that one out), and armour piercing better than no armourpiercing.

Not to mention with I6 daemonettes would actually deprive high elves of their rerolls.

You also have to factor in a herald for the Daemonettes so because of this extra point value in Daemonettes add in more spearmen.

[The bearded one]

Daemonettes are I5 actually, and they need the Herald for both units to have asf (which costs more points) so it looks fairly even to me.

bugger.. was thinking of dryads.

Still, 5+ ward > 5+ armoursave, daemonic instability > normal breaktest, and armourpiercing > no armourpiercing

If anything I find daemonic instability far too advantageous compared to either regular breaktests, or unstable.

[Torga_DW]

I'd rate daemonettes slightly higher. A 5+ wardsave is better than a 5+ armoursave after all, 2 attacks per model better than a spear (although the extra rank for the high elves does sort of even that one out), and armour piercing better than no armourpiercing.

Not to mention with I6 daemonettes would actually deprive high elves of their rerolls.

Except daemonettes are entirely reliant on their herald to get ASF. Who at the end of the day is just a t3 w2 model that must be in the front rank to grant the bonus.

High elf spearmen get martial prowess, which equals the same number of attacks on offense. Defensively, they get an extra rank of attacks on top of that.

Armour piercing on S3 has little effect in practice, empire knights won't even notice a difference.

Saying I6 daemonettes doesn't really mean anything since they're I5. With I6 high elf spearmen, they'd deprive daemonettes of their rerolls. Same thing.

Yes, high elf spearmen don't have a ward save, but they're also about 3 points cheaper per model and don't need a hero to give them their abilities or leadership.

So yes, i stand behind my assertion that they're very comparable.

[The bearded one]

Yeah, I think I had the archer pointcost in my head the entire time (which is a really, really awkward pointcost for an archer..)

[Torga_DW]

No worries. I find it interesting that people seem to think that bloodletters are the go-to troop, and horrors are pretty much worthless/overcosted. In my little world its the other way around, i find bloodletters drop like flies while doing insignificant returns, where horrors perform good for me.

[HalfBlood]

Opposite for me I find that with Fateweaver I have the magical assistance that keeps them alive. Horrors for me drop by Dwellers and what not.

[Torga_DW]

I tend to play around 2k so he's not really an option for me. I can't seem to build a list that doesn't have the masque in it though.

[HalfBlood]

Thats odd Im the total opposite lol Hey but whatever works for you. I like Skulltaker becase hes just an awsome model. If not I would swap him from Masque just because she is more effective.

[Torga_DW]

Yeah, whenever i ask someone: is it just me, or?..... its usually me. But the masque is a great utility char, can reduce movement or leadership, 3+ ward save, stats to take out most chaff/warmachine crew. Works well with two solo fiends.

As for horrors, life mage with bsb, shadow mage all in a 40 or more horde. thats 2 dispel scrolls, level 4 for dispels, potential for horrific casualties at range or in close combat with magic, all with a 4+ ward.

I know you can buff bloodletters, but then you're not getting the locus synergy on them. And for the bloodletter herald, hatred i think had a much bigger impact in 7th, where it was all about damage on the charge.

Not saying they're bad, just seems to be a different build. And thematically, i've always been a fan of tzeentch. Pity that the changes to magic made mono-tzeentch less desirable. Or that kairos costs about the same as a decked out lord of change but is arguably better.

[Malorian]

No worries. I find it interesting that people seem to think that bloodletters are the go-to troop, and horrors are pretty much worthless/overcosted. In my little world its the other way around, i find bloodletters drop like flies while doing insignificant returns, where horrors perform good for me.

??? This makes no sense.

Same cost, same toughness, but bloodletters have higher WS and horrors have 4+ ward instead of 5+. Depending on the opponent's weapon skill this might mean a wash or the horrors have a slight advantage in terms of defense, but then again the bloodletters can reduce return attacks through kills, and you can't deny that they kill WAY more that horrors so that any CR lost in a few more of their number falling are more than made up in the amount they kill.

Bloodletters are the go to troop in the DoC book.

[HalfBlood]

Horrors create a massive bunker for your magic. It also gives you a level 4 wizard that is not your Lord so its pretty interesting.