What powerlevel should the books rally around? (and which should be powered up/down?)

[Torga_DW]

??? This makes no sense.

Same cost, same toughness, but bloodletters have higher WS and horrors have 4+ ward instead of 5+. Depending on the opponent's weapon skill this might mean a wash or the horrors have a slight advantage in terms of defense, but then again the bloodletters can reduce return attacks through kills, and you can't deny that they kill WAY more that horrors so that any CR lost in a few more of their number falling are more than made up in the amount they kill.

Bloodletters are the go to troop in the DoC book.

WS doesn't tend to make a big difference overall, unless you're moving between brackets, like say ws5 vs ws2. And can be modified with the shadow sig spell.

the difference between 50% chance to save and 30% chance to save is pretty big imo, considering they're both t3.

bloodletters won't be reducing attacks back unless they're near the end of a combat, with opposing units getting stepup and steadfast. In 7th yes, it made a difference, but that no longer applies.

then you apply the shadow buffs (which can be used at range, since your mages aren't sitting behind the unit), synergizing with the flamers.

Netlists aren't always the best, or only solution.

[Malorian]

Horrors create a massive bunker for your magic. It also gives you a level 4 wizard that is not your Lord so its pretty interesting.

No doubt there, it's nice to have a magic casting bunker, byt I can tell you in a game that means I'll have one 20ish man horror unit and then all the rest would go into bloodletter hordes.

WS doesn't tend to make a big difference overall, unless you're moving between brackets, like say ws5 vs ws2. And can be modified with the shadow sig spell.

the difference between 50% chance to save and 30% chance to save is pretty big imo, considering they're both t3.

bloodletters won't be reducing attacks back unless they're near the end of a combat, with opposing units getting stepup and steadfast. In 7th yes, it made a difference, but that no longer applies.

then you apply the shadow buffs (which can be used at range, since your mages aren't sitting behind the unit), synergizing with the flamers.

Netlists aren't always the best, or only solution.

50% is better than 33% but how many fewer kills are you going to get?

Against empire swordmen (the average punching bag) a horde of blood letters + herald will kill 19.8 of them and the swordmen will kill 5 back, putting bloodletters ahead by 14.8. The horde of horrors + herald will kill 4.4 and the swordmen will kill 5 back, putting the swordmen ahead by 0.6. Big difference eh?

But maybe that's a bad example. Lets look at savage orc big uns who will be pumping out the most damage and their ward isn't effected by the high strength of the orcs: a horde of blood letters + herald will kill 16.2 of them and the savages will kill 13.9 back, putting bloodletters ahead by 2.3. The horde of horrors + herald will kill 4.4 and the savages will kill 13.9 back, putting the swordmen ahead by 9.5. Damn, they lost again...

If you don't go horde with the horrors then you are just prolonging your defeat and not actually gaining any ground. Sure they can be helped by outside forces but so could the bloodletters.

The thing about some internet talk is that it's based off math, and that math will always be right.

[Torga_DW]

No doubt there, it's nice to have a magic casting bunker, byt I can tell you in a game that means I'll have one 20ish man horror unit and then all the rest would go into bloodletter hordes.

Which would be a level 2 mage, and no better at dispelling than your herald.

[Malorian]

Which would be a level 2 mage, and no better at dispelling than your herald.

Fine, then just a unit of 10 then.

[Torga_DW]

No doubt there, it's nice to have a magic casting bunker, byt I can tell you in a game that means I'll have one 20ish man horror unit and then all the rest would go into bloodletter hordes.

50% is better than 33% but how many fewer kills are you going to get?

Against empire swordmen (the average punching bag) a horde of blood letters + herald will kill 19.8 of them and the swordmen will kill 5 back, putting bloodletters ahead by 14.8. The horde of horrors + herald will kill 4.4 and the swordmen will kill 5 back, putting the swordmen ahead by 0.6. Big difference eh?

The difference to hit will be 50% (horrors) compared to 66% (bloodletters). Unbuffed. Buffed, i'm looking at reducing their I and WS, reducing their T and/or S. If i have dice i can Okkams, putting my base S at 7. So potential for much higher dps.

But maybe that's a bad example. Lets look at savage orc big uns who will be pumping out the most damage and their ward isn't effected by the high strength of the orcs: a horde of blood letters + herald will kill 16.2 of them and the savages will kill 13.9 back, putting bloodletters ahead by 2.3. The horde of horrors + herald will kill 4.4 and the savages will kill 13.9 back, putting the swordmen ahead by 9.5. Damn, they lost again...

You do realize the point of having magic users is for the spells they cast? The herald of tzeentch isn't there for his melee ability. The life one buffs, the shadow one debuffs.

The thing about some internet talk is that it's based off math, and that math will always be right.

The thing about some internet talk is that its based off poor and/or faulty statistical models that don't actually account for the scenario they're dealing with. Thats what lead to the saying "their are lies, damn lies and statistics".


To your other post, why even bother fielding horrors at that point? Wouldn't you be better off fielding more bloodletters, or two fiends to go deep fields with their points?

[The bearded one]

Or you can just take a tzeentch wizard either in his bunker, or flying about, and buff bloodletters..

..big difference being that if you fail to get spells through, the bloodletters still wreck people's days.. like mine.

[Malorian]

How much magical power do you expect from a herald? And how far do you expect this to go?

This isn't a single unit vs a single unit, this is army vs army. Your way of thinking might have worked in 7th ed, but this is now 8th with random dice and magic that doesn't scale with the points put into it.

Really you are just taking the horrors for the herald whereas the bloodletters are taken for the bloodletters and the herald just makes them better. That's why your front lines are going to be made up by bloodletters and then you'll have a bunker of horrors in the back with your herald bsb. The 10-20 horrors are only there since the herald needs to join them and they are a secondary wizard in their own right.

[HalfBlood]

Or you can just take a tzeentch wizard either in his bunker, or flying about, and buff bloodletters..

..big difference being that if you fail to get spells through, the bloodletters still wreck people's days.. like mine.

Looks like your opponents are doing somthing wrong then.

In reguards to Togra

The idea behind the Horror Bunker is to make use of Locus of Tz, but at the same time hold a spot for the HoTs. Since he plays 2,000 point games this is the only level 4 daemons can take so I give him credit. The problem is his HoT's are only level 2's so getting off spells are going to be hard. You also have to remember that Horrors are S3, and I 3 making them weak to the nuke spells that Letters are pretty resistant about.

[The bearded one]

Looks like your opponents are doing somthing wrong then.

They're doing something wrong by wrecking my day? While that is surely a crime against decency, I'd think slaughtering through stuff is in fact the right direction for bloodletters.

Just on a sidenote, my regular daemonic opponents are the guys who usually gun for top 3 spots in large tournaments such as the GT and Battle of the Clubs, and one is on this year's ETC team.

[Malorian]

They wrecked my day too. Man was I surprised to see my savage orc biguns beaten... I hadn't done the math before hand and figured my 2+ to wound and their only 5+ ward would mean I would crush them, but their absolute killing power put me in my place.

You might think it's a big deal that the letters don't have hatred in the following combat, but it's not as bad as losing frenzy and +1 strength! I won't make that mistake again...

[Torga_DW]

Or you can just take a tzeentch wizard either in his bunker, or flying about, and buff bloodletters..

..big difference being that if you fail to get spells through, the bloodletters still wreck people's days.. like mine.

True, but then you're spending over 100 points on a bunker i've already got. And if he's out on his own, he'll be vulnerable to things like fiends, sabretusks, great eagles.

I'll add in malorian below to avoid doubleposting.

<<How much magical power do you expect from a herald? And how far do you expect this to go?>

i expect an average of 7 power dice a turn.
once combat hits, i'll average 2-3 spells per turn.


<<This isn't a single unit vs a single unit, this is army vs army. Your way of thinking might have worked in 7th ed, but this is now 8th with random dice and magic that doesn't scale with the points put into it.>>

Kinda ironic, i was thinking you were using 7th tactics. Hatred works on the first turn only, and units are far less likely to run away on the first turn in 8th. Magic resistance is largely worthless against the popular spells, like stat test instakills and hexes.

No, its not a single unit. Theres the rest of my army with it, like i was kind of presuming your example would also have. :P

<<Really you are just taking the horrors for the herald whereas the bloodletters are taken for the bloodletters and the herald just makes them better. That's why your front lines are going to be made up by bloodletters and then you'll have a bunker of horrors in the back with your herald bsb. The 10-20 horrors are only there since the herald needs to join them and they are a secondary wizard in their own right. >>

DPS is important, i'm not denying that. But frontline units need survivability too, since they'll be the ones taking the brunt of the damage. Bloodletters are t3 5++, they die pretty easily.

For the cost of that 10 man horror bunker (which if things go right, won't do anything) you could have a second wizard. Who wouldn't need an additional unit just to babysit him.

[Don Zeko]

They wrecked my day too. Man was I surprised to see my savage orc biguns beaten... I hadn't done the math before hand and figured my 2+ to wound and their only 5+ ward would mean I would crush them, but their absolute killing power put me in my place.

You might think it's a big deal that the letters don't have hatred in the following combat, but it's not as bad as losing frenzy and +1 strength! I won't make that mistake again...

I'm still trying to figure out why you kept bothering with this conversation after Torga dismissed the usefulness of Hatred or the value of Ws 5 vs. Ws 3. Oh, and for the record I'm unconvinced that Daemonettes are preferable to Witch Elves.

[Torga_DW]

Looks like your opponents are doing somthing wrong then.

In reguards to Togra

The idea behind the Horror Bunker is to make use of Locus of Tz, but at the same time hold a spot for the HoTs. Since he plays 2,000 point games this is the only level 4 daemons can take so I give him credit. The problem is his HoT's are only level 2's so getting off spells are going to be hard. You also have to remember that Horrors are S3, and I 3 making them weak to the nuke spells that Letters are pretty resistant about.

True, if i had that sort of points, i would probably take kairos. Which would require a shift in my troops to capitalize on the magic phase. RIP mono-tzeentch. As to the nukes, in my experience the spells incoming are largely hexes and insta-kill stat tests, for which magic resistance does nothing. Although with it, the letters ward save is only 16% better against magic missiles.

Bloodletters are decent close combat units for core troops, but against other armies close combat troops that rely on quality over quantity, (like chosenstar, graveguard, etc) they're not my ideal unit for a horde.


<<I'm still trying to figure out why you kept bothering with this conversation after Torga dismissed the usefulness of Hatred or the value of Ws 5 vs. Ws 3.>>

Hatred is a bit like choppas, good in the first turn then does nothing. Again, in 7th this was important as you would break units on the charge, but if they can survive your first assault it becomes a grind where offensive power isn't the be-all end-all. And Ws 5 vs Ws 3 is no better than Ws 4 vs Ws 3.

[Malorian]

I don't think you're getting it. You are taking the horrors just for the herald. Think about it: would you put a Tz herald in a bloodletter unit if you could? Hell yes! Would you put a khorne herald in a horror block? Hell no!

Instead of taking 3 hordes of horrors with 3 heralds I'm saying turn two of those completely into bloodletter/herald units and then reduce the horror horde to just a bunker and use those points to get something else (fiends or whatever).

In the end the bloodletters + herald is a self contained unit that needs nothing more than to be put into combat, whereas the horrors + herald depend on magic and doesn't scale as you take more of them.

I understand what you are trying to do, but you're just making life hard for yourself. Keep the heralds and their fancy magic, put them back in a bunker, and then use the magic to help out the bloodletters in the front line.

[fubukii]

I think alot of people over look that daemon armies in general do not get the auto +4 to dispel like every other army without taking a 600+ point over costed greater daemon, or a 480 pt horror block. This allows your magic phases to be better in regards to dispelling and casting. If you dont think a +2 advantage is significant you are mistaken.

Also heralds of slannesh are terrible, unless you use them as a siren song. Daemonettes are also rather rubbish.

Also to mention the daemon icons are 0-1 so only 1 unit of letters can have the +d6 charge once per game. Blood letters are fine compared to other elite troops, and instability is often worse then steadfeast/stubborn with rerolls in this edition. You take no wounds on your rerollable ld9/10 tests while i take ld8 from my general, 9 at most if i have my 600pt greater daemon who is super fragile and easily killed. So you pass your ld 9/10 take no wounds, i take rerollable ld8 check with modifiers, at least -1 if i lose cc (daemons usually arent steadfast unless the fight is over).

Daemons are a upper mid tier army without kairos/masque. THe ld bomb armies are gimmicks, and all you need to do i kill the stupid keeper of secrets/ masque and win the game easy. Use some cannons and missle units.

[The bearded one]

Also to mention the daemon icons are 0-1 so only 1 unit of letters can have the +d6 charge once per game.

so? How is this different from anybody else's banners?

instability is often worse then steadfeast/stubborn with rerolls in this edition. You take no wounds on your rerollable ld9/10 tests while i take ld8 from my general, 9 at most if i have my 600pt greater daemon who is super fragile and easily killed. So you pass your ld 9/10 take no wounds, i take rerollable ld8 check with modifiers, at least -1 if i lose cc (daemons usually arent steadfast unless the fight is over).

I disagree. Instability may be worse in certain specific cases, but daemons can be steadfast too. So, just like regular folks, they first roll their ld9 rerollable ld test. if they were to fail said test, then instead of running away and possibly be overrun and destroyed, the daemons lose * shock * gasp * horror * a handful of dudes.. with steadfast that's limited to about 3-4 models. People always go "but they might fail their test and a lot may poof!" but forget that the penalty for failing a breaktest for all other armies is to run away and possibly be destroyed. Daemons and non-daemons are the same in taking a breaktest, only the consequences of failing are different. So that's still the steadfast high ld rerollable test like everybody else.

[Torga_DW]

I don't think you're getting it. You are taking the horrors just for the herald. Think about it: would you put a Tz herald in a bloodletter unit if you could? Hell yes! Would you put a khorne herald in a horror block? Hell no!

I do get it, but that configuration of units makes you spend more points on infrastructure. The minimum cost of the bunker is roughly the cost of the wizard.

Instead of taking 3 hordes of horrors with 3 heralds I'm saying turn two of those completely into bloodletter/herald units and then reduce the horror horde to just a bunker and use those points to get something else (fiends or whatever).

I agree with you. I wouldn't take more than one horde of horrors if i had room for multiple hordes or units. I never meant to suggest this, and apologize if it came across that way. But i would take the horror horde first, before taking other hordes/units. Its synergy level is greater than bloodletters in my opinion, based on my experience.

In the end the bloodletters + herald is a self contained unit that needs nothing more than to be put into combat, whereas the horrors + herald depend on magic and doesn't scale as you take more of them.

It doesn't scale with multiple units, but it does scale with unit size, up to a level 4 mage, which is where magic is generally at. +1 to cast icon on the unit standard bearer. Which is at least 1-2 potential turns of magical firepower as the other army crosses the table, more depending on circumstances. The ability to use offensive magic on the enemy is worth stating, whereas the bunker back behind can only see allies.

For example, the withering has the same range as flamers. If you get it off, flamers and further magic missiles will do significantly more damage. The shadow signature spell can be used cheaply on movement, combined with the masque on movement, combining for a -2 to -6 to movement stat. On average, thats -4. So with luck, while your bloodletter horde is marching towards me at 2 inches a turn, i have time to deal with the other elements in your army.

Let me give you an example that bloodletters would have trouble with. I once faced an army whose main unit was a horde of 40 dark elf repeater crossbowmen. They put out iirc 40 shots per turn, and 40 at incoming charging units. Off the top of my head, thats ~20 kills, or two ranks of a bloodletter horde from one round of shooting and the incoming fire.

I understand what you are trying to do, but you're just making life hard for yourself. Keep the heralds and their fancy magic, put them back in a bunker, and then use the magic to help out the bloodletters in the front line.

I respectfully disagree, sir.

[fubukii]

so? How is this different from anybody else's banners?



I disagree. Instability may be worse in certain specific cases, but daemons can be steadfast too. So, just like regular folks, they first roll their ld9 rerollable ld test. if they were to fail said test, then instead of running away and possibly be overrun and destroyed, the daemons lose * shock * gasp * horror * a handful of dudes.. with steadfast that's limited to about 3-4 models. People always go "but they might fail their test and a lot may poof!" but forget that the penalty for failing a breaktest for all other armies is to run away and possibly be destroyed. Daemons and non-daemons are the same in taking a breaktest, only the consequences of failing are different. So that's still the steadfast high ld rerollable test like everybody else.

Daemons very rarely get steadfast at 12+ pts per model man at the cheapest.. In addition they wont be ld9 unless you take a 600 pt easily killed general. Who just dies in the current meta to cannons or get killed by step up attacks from elite models.SO most likely they will be ld8, while your troops will be 9 or 10. thats significant. In addition you ignore the +2 cast/dispel advantage.

[The bearded one]

Daemons very rarely get steadfast at 12+ pts per model man at the cheapest.. In addition they wont be ld9 unless you take a 600 pt easily killed general. Who just dies in the current meta to cannons or get killed by step up attacks from elite models.SO most likely they will be ld8, while your troops will be 9 or 10. thats significant. In addition you ignore the +2 cast/dispel advantage.

Bull. 2 of the local daemonplayers use bloodthirsters and regularly fight 2 dwarf players who both have 2 cannons (and an organ gun and grudgethrower), and big chunky blocks of dwarfs with great weapons. By your reasoning the "easily killed" bloodthirsters should be either blown to smithereens by cannons, or killed with step-up attacks from units who have either strenght 5, or strength 6. With little difficulty do they manage to get their thirsters to the other side of the table and into combat where they have a fieldday hacking and chopping.

[Jerry]

[QUOTE=fubukii;6194254]I think alot of people over look that daemon armies in general do not get the auto +4 to dispel like every other army without taking a 600+ point over costed greater daemon, or a 480 pt horror block. This allows your magic phases to be better in regards to dispelling and casting. If you dont think a +2 advantage is significant you are mistaken.

Also heralds of slannesh are terrible, unless you use them as a siren song. Daemonettes are also rather rubbish.

You aren't even giving reasons. Everything looks like rubbish when compared to WS 5 S5 unbreakable killing blow I4 5++ red cheese. And all for 6 slaves and you seriously think daemons are upper-mid tier? They either wipe the floor with any in combat or sit there and grind/deny points.

Also to mention the daemon icons are 0-1 so only 1 unit of letters can have the +d6 charge once per game. Blood letters are fine compared to other elite troops, and instability is often worse then steadfeast/stubborn with rerolls in this edition. You take no wounds on your rerollable ld9/10 tests while i take ld8 from my general, 9 at most if i have my 600pt greater daemon who is super fragile and easily killed. So you pass your ld 9/10 take no wounds, i take rerollable ld8 check with modifiers, at least -1 if i lose cc (daemons usually arent steadfast unless the fight is over).

Mate you haven't even compared it to anything where are you getting these statements from. Greater daemons are t6 with 5wounds and a lord of change loremaster of life can just hide behind a building and buff units by T2. 20" March can take you right next to the cannon in 1/2 turns anyway not to mention you can regen wounds from the life attribute and your +6 to cast.

Daemons are a upper mid tier army without kairos/masque. THe ld bomb armies are gimmicks, and all you need to do i kill the stupid keeper of secrets/ masque and win the game easy. Use some cannons and missle units.

No daemons are a top tier army and are broken with kairos. Ld bomb daemons don't stand for all daemons that's like saying Empire handgunner spam stands for all empire. The daemon armies with 100+ bloodletters could not be bothered in the slightest how high/low your ld is. Hatred isn't even a big deal they will still kill in drones and the worst part is you will never get the points out of their units because they are unbreakable so you're only chance is to beat them in combat, which is hard to do for even savage orc big'un hordes like malorian stated, or you have to grind every single wound down.
Bearing in mind these units are so damn cheap for what they do.
Killing the herald doesn't break them. They lose hatred which they have for the 1st round anyway.