What powerlevel should the books rally around? (and which should be powered up/down?)

[DaemonReign]

Well I for one think they will keep Instability and the Daemonic Gifts. No reason they shouldn't.
It would be damn ugly if they didn't though. Just godawfull. I would seriously concider continuing with the current book (despite everything) in that case.
Can't really see why their LD would be going down across the board either, halfblood, that already happened when they 'lost' the autopopping to breaking their unmodified leadership, if you remember.
Besides, as the more moderate estimations in this thread has shown - there's just no reason for it.

But hey, anyone's guess is as good as mine of course. But I reserve the right to keep my mood up and hope for the best.
Daemons can certainly be redone in a balanced way without dealing out sucker-punches that will only satisfy the warped minds of exactly the kind of 'gamers' that should never be satisfied.

[Blkc57]

Daemons wont get the crumble mechanic that VC and TK have.

They already have it in Storms of Magic and all subsequent Forgeworld products. I find it humerous that GW would write the rules for a Exalted Daemon in Storm of Magic and yet give them a weaker unstable mechanic than a regular daemon. Portents of things to come I say, portents of things to come.

[DaemonReign]

They already have it in Storms of Magic and all subsequent Forgeworld products. I find it humerous that GW would write the rules for a Exalted Daemon in Storm of Magic and yet give them a weaker unstable mechanic than a regular daemon. Portents of things to come I say, portents of things to come.

Yeah perhaps..
Or those Daemons are summoned by magic (Scrolls of Binding etcetera), much like Undead are kept animate by magic.
Or they just wanted to save non-Daemon players from an extra set of rules.

Either way, the primary reason why I (and consequently the rest of my group) picked up neither book. And I'd be strongly inclined to do the same with a new Daemon Book, should they be undeadified. GW would have lost the plot, it's really that simple.

But you're right, it may well be portents of things to come.. I see that too.

[gdsora]

For me

Daemonic instability is a case of having your cake and eating it too.

I think point costs should be adjusted to count for the changes of 8th edition.

REGARDLESS

For the original topic, I would love to see everything have a power level similar to vampires.

A lot of options, nothing over the top, nothing that seems to say DONT TAKE ME. I like the position they are in

[Athlan na Dyr]

You also are assuming that their is enough terrian to protect the Greater Daemon.. Most of my game we end up rolling few pieaces of terrain many of which are small.

Easy fix is to ask for a few more terrain pieces. Of course, this does depend on your environment, but if you've bought a well painted tower/ mansion/ etc. most people are generally happy for it to be on the board

Its not that easy. Remember GDs cost generally over 550+ points. Every turn they are not doing anything means their points are lost. The time it takes furies to get to warmachines in about 2 turns, thats also assuming that your opponent does not have them completely fortified.

Just because a GD doesn't kill its points worth in units doesn't make it worthless. The same goes for a lot of units in the game.
Personally, I think of value (for support units) more strategically; what has the unit done to enabled my mainline units to do their job/ do it more efficiently? For example, my terrorgheist might not kill bucketloads, but the rank or half rank it can pick off in a turn or two often makes a world of difference for my Grave Guard. Same with my Corpse Cart (can't remember the last time it did kill something). The same thing goes for my ~500 point vamp lord. He allows my ghouls to punch waaaaay above their weight in combats.
Consider the value of a Bloodthirster killing a lvl 4 bunker in turn 3. Even if it didn't do anything in the first two turns, the strategic worth is huge. Regrettably, the modern game has relegated practically all big monstrous things to this supportting role, rather than the mainline's "kill your points in x, y and z!".
tldr; don't think of not being in combat as a waste of points, see if you can get the positioning you need for a later pay-off that gives value of a different kind.

Im not complainin about it. Its just a fact that is true. Daemons can die do to a cannon shot its been proven above. I have my counters to it, its just most armies dont have a possibility to lose their general turn 1. Daemons do.

Everyone has a chance to lose their general turn one. Yes, a GD's is greater, but LoS! doesn't always work (it is very good though) and few other generals have more than 3 wounds and the mobility to hide from cannons. Chuck in things like Dwellers nabbing them or Hellheart and everyone has a very reasonable chance to die. As someone who regularly fields a ~500 point character, the options you have when faced with things like this is;
a) run like a pansy, yet have a cunning plan later or
b) ignore it and have some form of healing magic (and ward) at the ready
Whenever I've seen a GD run, there is always a life mage boosting their wounds back up.
As you've stated the daemon army also has quite a few ways of nabbing or minimising the damage from cannons and other warmachines. You really aren't that much more vulnerable than most other armies.

It is ones opionion to decide whats balanced and unbalanced right? I could say Skaven is a balanced army, and just all the other armies are way underpowered. See where im coming from?
That is not the case... I have not once said daemons were balanced, If i remember correctly I had stated that Daemons are in the top 5 and are overpowered. What upsets me is people are not over Daemons from 7th edition so you continue to just whine about everything.

no, but you've been stating its inherently wrong to compare them to anything other than the rest of the top five...

Athlan I don't even get you, Your comparing Bloodletters to an 8th edition balanced book... (Empire/OnG/VC) If you compare any of the top 5 books against the balanced book it clearly shows the top 5 are better get over it

The comparison between 'letters and grave guard was made to show that the former were more powerful for their points (and therefore would constitute a a price rise if balanced to the VC book). Considering the general assessment that the 8th ed books are being relatively balanced against each other, I'm using one of these (VC, as I'm most familiar with them) as a baseline. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
Just as an FYI, I started in 8th (though my daemon opponent's an ass, so I'm probs still biased).

Daemonic Ward Save is far better then a 4+ armor, yet you have to realize that a ward save says is made out of every 3 saves. Armies with alot of Low S and alot of Attacks really make Bloodletters look silly. However the save permits against high S attacks that most armies wont get a save against.

I feel a terrible need to say something along the lines of cannons making GD look silly and bloodletters making elites look silly.
Lets face it, if they didn't have some kind of weakness (*cough* 3++ chosen *cough*) then that would be really, really crappy and rage inducing.
Lets agree to say that they look different depending on which side of the fence you view them from, k?

Daemonic Lores should easily be changed. Lore of Nurgle, and Lore of Slannesh need some price changes, and Lore of Tz needs a whole redone.

Agreed, as with most 7th Ed books

Daemons wont get the crumble mechanic that VC and TK have. The reason these armies have that rule is because their healing is effective (Tk healing alot less effective then VC though). Im pretty sure they will keep the daemonic instability the way it is, maybe drop their leader ship by 1 point across the board.

It would be ridiculously bad if they made daemons 'elite undead'. Though your current break system is a definite advantage, no 2 ways about it.

[N1AK]

FleshHounds - Overcosted by about 5 points.
Flamers - More or less good where they are.

I'm going to agree with almost all of what you said in your post. The biggest issue with Daemons is that they have some entirely broken options (Siren Song). The fact they have some better than average units is comparatively less problematic. Personally I think Flesh Hounds would need to be worse if they were going to be cheaper; they have too much going for them to just discount. Finally, Flamers are not ok as they are. I'd prefer to see them given a weakness or limitation rather than a points increase, however as they are they'd still get spammed if they got a 20% points increase.

[N1AK]

I don't think I can agree with that. Daemons remained one step up even after the dark elf release

I also think that DE topped Daemons in 7th though not by much and requiring better understanding of the army. I also think Lizards were pretty damn close.

The latest Vampire books seems like a good level and balance to aim for this edition.

[Munin]

After reading most of this topic, the one person calling everyone trolls seems to be the biggest troll of them all, accompanied by the obligatory bad argumenting skills, undermining the other Daemon players in the discussion. One could almost imagen that he is anti-daemons and is just trolling as a daemon player to make them all look bad.

[Phazael]

Here are the last two lists I took to GTs. Bear in mind that the second one was toned down, since I had just won an event and that with both I made a serious effort to stick within a theme.

Broadside Bash-
Keeper- Siren Song, Torment Blade, Aura of Aquiesence (test LD to attack me)
Herald of Slaanesh (Siren Song, Torment Blade)
Herald of Slaanesh (Siren Song, Torment Blade)
Herald of Tzeench (Loremaster: Heavens, Spellbreaker, BSB: Icon of Dispair)
Masque of Slaanesh
23 Daemonettes with full command
23 Daemonettes with full command
29 Horrors with Changling and a unit standard
5 Furies
6 Flamers
1 Fiend
1 Fiend

I was fortunate to not draw Ogres more than one, though I played the best Ogre guy there. He should have beat me, but he made one mistake that I was able to capitolize on, so luck definately played a role. My other opponents were Dwarves, Dark Elves, Lizardmen (Life Slaan build), and Beastmen. The lizardmen guy should have beat me, but he took a dumb risk trying to 6 dice dwellers my BSB on turn one and I busted his Slaan bunker with my Keeper, thanks to pig piling the LD bomb on him (Masque, BSB, and Ice Shard). The Beastmen guy took me to the wire and its my friend who won last year with a daemonette based DoC army; he went on to take second as I was his only loss all weekend. The other two armies were pretty cookie cutter. My list was strong, but I was also somewhat fortunate with the draws I got and some risks my opponents took.

At the Bay Area Open, I dropped the Masque and some of the Slaanesh stuff for a highlander list (there can be only one) and the inclusion of Nurgle:
Keeper (as above)
Herald of Tzeench (as above)
Herald of Slaanesh (as above)
Herald of Nurgle (Slime Trails, Pestilant Breath)
29 Horrors with Changling, Musican, and Std
23 Daemonettes w FC
19 Plaguebearers w FC and Std of Seaping Decay
5 Furies
6 Flamers w Champ
1 Beast of Nurgle
1 Fiend of Slaanesh

At this event, which had virtually no comp restrictions to speak of, I went 3-2. Day one I faced Tomb Kings, Dwarves, and Empire and went undefeated. Day two, I played Skaven and lost badly, then played maximum unbreakable ********* empire and never even had a chance. This was the lizardmen guy from the Broadside and he was nice enough to tell me that he brought this tooled list specifically to take mine out. He also cheated a bunch, but really did not have to. I could have cheated the entire time and still would have lost this game, thanks to unbreakable units, 5 war machines, and 6 dice Mind Razored Flaggelents every turn. I lost my GD in three of the games I played, twice on the first turn. The Skaven guy forgot half of the stuff his army could do and still crushed me utterly, but that was not suprising either as skaven dominate daemons and the guy is a good general.

And yeah, Daemons got dethroned the moment the Dark Elf army came out and the Unkillable Lord of Infinate Cock Blocking became a common battlefield sight. The Vamp Doggy Deathstar and GG Deathstar armies were already overtaking Daemons at that point, anyhow. Then the Skaven came in and that, as they say, was that. Daemons are probably on the same field as Ogres, depending on what each army took, but if the Ogres are shooty, there is not a DoC army out there that can stand against them.

[Phazael]

I'm going to agree with almost all of what you said in your post. The biggest issue with Daemons is that they have some entirely broken options (Siren Song). The fact they have some better than average units is comparatively less problematic. Personally I think Flesh Hounds would need to be worse if they were going to be cheaper; they have too much going for them to just discount. Finally, Flamers are not ok as they are. I'd prefer to see them given a weakness or limitation rather than a points increase, however as they are they'd still get spammed if they got a 20% points increase.

You do realize that Siren comes in two platforms in the army. One is the cannon magnet Keeper, who really just uses siren to get into the fight before she is blown off the table. The second is on a naked T3 hero choice that can only sit with S3T3 troops that you yourself have declared to be the weakest troops in the book. Siren is only broken if your army revolves around deathstars with no chaffe or you have completely sold out to the gunline. Against a balanced list with some chaffe units, its not a big deal. Stop running 5 drop armies where you and your opponent slap two deathstars together and try and six dice killspells and you will stop getting burnt by siren.

[The bearded one]

These comments are not intended as snarky or smartass, but are genuine.

And yeah, Daemons got dethroned the moment the Dark Elf army came out and the Unkillable Lord of Infinate Cock Blocking became a common battlefield sight.

As in 7th the crown of command didn't exist yet, couldn't the unkillable lord be ld-bombed (even with only the icon of despair), beaten on combat res (ranks, banner, outnumber. If the dreadlord kills 4 guys (and the daemon passes 0/4 wardsaves) he'd still lose and have to test on ld7) and chased off?

The Vamp Doggy Deathstar and GG Deathstar armies were already overtaking Daemons at that point, anyhow.

Couldn't bloodletters do a fair job on several of the deathstar's characters with killing blow?

[Bikhu]

After reading most of this topic, the one person calling everyone trolls seems to be the biggest troll of them all, accompanied by the obligatory bad argumenting skills, undermining the other Daemon players in the discussion. One could almost imagen that he is anti-daemons and is just trolling as a daemon player to make them all look bad.

I must agree with this. I have read this thread because I generally enjoy discussions of power army balance and power levels. However, Halfblood's posts can be so over-the-top and personal in tone, and his unpersuasive (in my opinion of course) positions on Greater Demons and ward saves, really does no favors to other people trying to make a more moderate case for Deamon army balance.

I have only seen a Deamon army fielded three times, but ward saved Bloodletters, Bloodthirsters, and that stupid leadership bomb trick all seemed quite powerful. The Bloodthirster didn't seem overpowered necessarily, but I was playing dwarves with a cannon. Not sure how I would have dealt with it if I was playing VC (outside of a blender lord). I will say that bloodletter hordes do seem too cheap for what they can do and with that ward save, especially given their more forgiving break test mechanic. The leadership bomb thing is just over-the-top and needs to be toned down or removed. Though take these comments with a grain of salt as I have only witnessed the army played on three different occasions.

[Blkc57]

Keeper- Siren Song, Torment Blade, Aura of Aquiesence (test LD to attack me)
Herald of Slaanesh (Siren Song, Torment Blade)
Herald of Slaanesh (Siren Song, Torment Blade)
Herald of Tzeench (Loremaster: Heavens, Spellbreaker, BSB: Icon of Dispair)
Masque of Slaanesh
23 Daemonettes with full command
23 Daemonettes with full command
29 Horrors with Changling and a unit standard
5 Furies
6 Flamers
1 Fiend
1 Fiend

I don't mean to poke Phazael, but the lists you posted reek of the Slaanesh Leadership Bomb. That list is in general one of my pet peeves about the old Daemons book, something that just sucks the fun out of warhammer when your opponent simply gets to play your army for you. Looking over this thread it seems that Daemon players may not be entirely aware that some of their lists are still rather cheesy even though as a whole 8th edition has toned down their general power.

[Phazael]

These comments are not intended as snarky or smartass, but are genuine.



As in 7th the crown of command didn't exist yet, couldn't the unkillable lord be ld-bombed (even with only the icon of despair), beaten on combat res (ranks, banner, outnumber. If the dreadlord kills 4 guys (and the daemon passes 0/4 wardsaves) he'd still lose and have to test on ld7) and chased off?



Couldn't bloodletters do a fair job on several of the deathstar's characters with killing blow?

People started taking the mounted guy with the reverse ward save on a horse or peg almost imediately, just to counter Greater Daemons and to hunt war machines. Charlie Addison won the Baltimore GT the first year the new DE book was out doing exactly that. The rest of the top 6 at that event were me with Daemons, a Lizardmen list, and 4 Doggy Deathstar Vampire armies. When your 550+ point general can be countered by a 160 point hero who moves just as fast, you are going to have problems, especially if you are getting shot to ribbons by reapeater crossbows at the time. The Crown and Vanguard just turn the knobs up to 11 on that tactic. Even without the crown, back when killing things kept them from attacking you, the DE lord on a Peg (remember the mount got hatred) could kill 4 guys a turn reliably on his own anyhow, giving him a very makable LD9 test against the static 5 regular units of the day and he pretty much always autowon against any monster that was not a Giant. The Leadership bomb really did not see wide use until 8th, as a counter to rampant steadfast. Most Daemon players at the tournament level at that time used either Sundering or the +d3 combat res banner.

And Bloodletters were a terrible matchup against the Doggy Deathstar, because the unit was fast cavalry and would just come in from the rear, thanks to Spam Macabre, with its significantly faster vampire characters wiping out any Bloodletters before they could swing (remember, no step up). Unless you were the rare bird, like me, who ran obsidian armor on his jugger herald, you probably lost the herald in round one to the fighty character as well. This assumes he even bothered to engage your bloodletters and didn't just perma tar pit them in a block of WS10 Skeletons or Ghouls.

If you don't believe me, take a look at how many events Daemons either won Best General or Overall since the DE book was released and especially in 8th and you will see an amazing dropoff. That is of course outside of Hardboyz, where Teclis and Kairos are around every corner, but even then the Dark Elves still dominated.

If you think Bloodletter hordes are overpowered, then you you must not play against any empire players who rock the Flaggelent or Greatsword hordes and you must not have ever faced 5pt khorne greatsword marauder hordes. There are other units that do what Bloodletters do more efficiently, but those are common tournament staples that blow them out of the water.

As for the leadership bomb, I think if you remove the Masque's LD debuff (or at least make it not stack with the Icon), the LD bomb is fine. Plenty of other armies have access to it, to some degree. The only reason you see Daemons take it is that they are frail and get attritioned down by steadfast without it. Basic Night Goblins with nets will attrition down any DoC block of comperable points well before their steadfast is ever broken. Same with Skaven Slaves, Gnoblar Columbs, or Swordsman. Really, any infantry block with cheap derps and massed S3 attacks (something literally every book has) can grind down equal points of DoC without ever having to worry about steadfast going away, which is why a lot of Daemons have resorted to the LD Bomb. Frankly, Slaanesh has multiple abilities that depend on it to work. The Masque (or Doom and Darkness) is the tipping point really, which is why I stopped taking her and only used both against people who basically leave me no other choice (eg the lizardmen guy with 1600 points of his army in a TG cold blooded rerollable LD10 Deathstar chain casting 6 dice dwellers is the one guy I doubled up on at the Bash). The advent of the super BSB and constant reforms has also amplified the effect of the LD bomb. I think once people see what VC can do with it, they will stop complaining about the DoC version of it.

[Phazael]

I don't mean to poke Phazael, but the lists you posted reek of the Slaanesh Leadership Bomb. That list is in general one of my pet peeves about the old Daemons book, something that just sucks the fun out of warhammer when your opponent simply gets to play your army for you. Looking over this thread it seems that Daemon players may not be entirely aware that some of their lists are still rather cheesy even though as a whole 8th edition has toned down their general power.

I absolutely used LD bomb. When your entire army is mostly composed of S3 T3 models and you are running essentially one L2 (non shadow or life) wizard, you need a means to break hordes. And as I said, anyone with descent mix of shooting and chaffe units can beat this list. The issue is that a lot of people (often the most vocal complainers) seem to want to just shove three deathstars a L4 and a BSB on the table and point denial 6dicekillspell their way to a win. If you look at my army, its actually really easy to get points off of and I have to actually WIN close combat for the LD bomb to matter. The Masque is where I kind of jumped the shark and even though I only used her in combination with the Icon in one game (against someone who probably deserved it), a less sporting person would probably not excercise that level of restraint. Honestly, I mainly took her as a sort of third fiend, since my army was designed around abusing chaffe more than abusing LD bomb. After the Bay Area Open, I learned that a Beast of Nurgle is actually better in the same role, so no more Masque for me.

But lets take the pepsi challenge here. Which army is more fun to play against, mine or:

Lizardman army with an unkillable TG deathstar with all the points in it flanked by two saurus hordes and two three man salamander packs, spamming lore of light spells all game.

Skaven army with two unbreakable Bell/Cauldron units flanked by two to three 100 man slave trains and supported by two Warp Lightning Cannons.

A dark army that consists of a Witch Horde, Cauldron BSB, nothign but Crossbowmen core, two shadow wizards (one with Dagger), and two peg heros (one unkillable stubborn, the other immune to shooting and following your wizard around with the Ring of Hotek).

An Ogre army that consists of two giant deathstars, three sabertusks, and two Ironblasters, with the Hellheart and Runemaw in the main deathstar.

An Empire army consisting of two Steam Tanks, five war machines, a Flaggelent Horde backed by a shadow wizard (Mind Razor FTW), a block of knights with stubborn crown, a popemobile, and a single bunker of state troops stuffed ino the folding fortress.

A VC army with the character bunkered in giant zombie units, a pair of Mortis Engines, behind a giant wall of Crypt Ghouls, flanked by two Vargiest units and two etherial fast cav units.

Another Daemon army that consisted of two giant bloodletter hordes, with two units of flamers behind them bunkering a pair of shadow loremaster tzeench heralds, and led by a Great Unclean one.

These are all armies I have seen (several more than once) at the last couple of GTs I have been to. Now maybe I am old fashioned in wanting to make the movement phase more interesting, but I have to say my army is nowhere near the frustration level of those lists to play. Thats not even talking about some of the Dwarf full frontal male nudity gunline lists I have seen that make me want to bleed out of my eyeballs, either.

[DaemonReign]

I absolutely used LD bomb. When your entire army is mostly composed of S3 T3

Yeah that's for sure. Any list resting heavily on Slaanesh Daemons needs those 'dirty, filthy, broken' tricks to be competative.
I'm all in favor of nerfing Siren Song hard, or removing it all together, as I am also all in favor of nerfing the Despair Icon and the Masque.
Dealing out a -4 penalty to Leadership before you even begin to cast Hexes is just too much, especially if you really go all the way and pick out the butter cookie choices of the Whole List (which I don't think Phazael did in his list: Pyrocoster for Flamers *lol*, Beast of Nurgle, no Bloodletters..)
But the point is that if you remove those OP items you need to accept that Slaanesh Daemon (in particular) would need compensation 'in other places' - yes both for the sake of internal and external balance:
- Daemonettes going down a point in cost would be a reasonable start.
- Herald of Slaanesh (and remember she should cost a bit more for her Locus in 8th!) should probably be T4 at a very minor increase to her cost.
- A re-institution of the HoC 'Aura of Slaanesh' Gift could help shift the 'ld-bombing' away from the mixed Daemon Army to where it belongs: Slaanesh Daemons(!)
All for the sake of creating both better balance and a shift away from the current status of Daemons where the choice between being Competative and Fluffy is so damn harsh and clear-cut.

[DaemonReign]

Personally I think Flesh Hounds would need to be worse if they were going to be cheaper;

I've taken part in quite academic math-hammer studies of all Daemonic Units, including FleshHounds in 8th Ed, and all things put together the conclusion wasn't to make them cheaper or worse really. Let's say they got 'Devastating Charge' and they'd be pretty spot on for their current cost.
It should be noted that they were, indeed, pretty undercosted in the Combat System of 7th Edition though. Have you really seen them perform the same wonders in 8th, I wonder?
I respect your opinion though, and your guess is as good as mine in the end.

Finally, Flamers are not ok as they are. I'd prefer to see them given a weakness or limitation rather than a points increase, however as they are they'd still get spammed if they got a 20% points increase.

20% is coming on a little strong. They are very random after all. Resilient though, but in my personal experience it's mostly their propensity to roll snake-eyes for ld-checks that make them 'broken'. So luck dependant. The idea I've seen to date, as far as nerfing them goes, is along the lines of decreasing the Range of 'Flames of Tzeentch' to 12". This could be argued from the viewpoint of the new Skirmish rules of 8th Edition.
While Flamers were a damn blooper in terms of cost in 7th, the generally bigger unit sizes of 8th has hit them a little bit (all though you might say indirectly) which is why I don't think it's totally fair to call them utter filth anymore.
Again, I respect your opinion and I agree that Flamers would be fieldable also if they cost 40pts (for example) but 20% (not to be pendantic) is shooting over the mark by some degree.

[DaemonReign]

Stop running 5 drop armies where you and your opponent slap two deathstars together and try and six dice killspells and you will stop getting burnt by siren.

My private gripe with Siren Song is mostly philosophical:
I don't like that it "takes over" the opponant's Charge Sub Phase with no way of 'dispelling it'.
If it - for example - only worked against Charges that had already been declared I'd concider it quite a nice Gift actually (a whole lot less powerfull of course, but that's really just a side note here).

[Maoriboy007]

Daemons wont get the crumble mechanic that VC and TK have. The reason these armies have that rule is because their healing is effective (Tk healing alot less effective then VC though).

Demons generally fight better than undead and have a ward save, so would be a bit more insulated from instability than undead sans raising.
If there is a real gripe I have with the VC book is that Steadfast BSBs Ld tests or Wards weren't applied against crumbling

[The bearded one]

Again, I respect your opinion and I agree that Flamers would be fieldable also if they cost 40pts (for example) but 20% (not to be pendantic) is shooting over the mark by some degree.

20% up would be 42pts, a fairly small increase.