My list of things I would like to see in the new wood elf book if they ever make one:
1 make the glade gaurd longbow an upgrade avalable to lords heros riders and scouts
2 bears with stats simaler to sabertusks but with the devestating charge
3 lower the points on the tree man to 250
Those are a few of my ideas
I definitely think every model in the army with a bow should have Glade Guard Longbows, even Waywatchers. That alone would make them a much more desirable choice. St4 is hardly gamebreaking, and when I think about something like RxBs on Shades or Blow Pipes on Chameleons, it just seems reasonable, even with Lethal Shot.
Units of single beasts like Sabertusks would definitely be cool, too. I'd like to see wolves incorporated into WEs.
I was just saying on another site that I just really wish we get some cheap spear-armed infantry so that we can participate at least somewhat in the traditional 8th ed meta, but find a way to keep skirmishing on Dryads and Wardancers and have them still be effective. I hate the idea of making Dryads or Wardancers a ranked infantry unit. I'd like to maintain the warband feel of the army.
I was also saying that I thought it would be cool if Forest Spirits were Unbreakable. We'd be the only army with a healthy mix of Unbreakable and mortal units, kinda like an old Storm of Chaos list, but elegant and orderly. Just a thought, though I bet some people would hate that idea.
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Potentially some kind of rule to make the WE Warband concept a bit stronger, maybe? Perhaps something which can make them a bit more durable in CC, something like allowing steadfast.Originally Posted by willowdark
We have eternal gaurd for spearmen
Exactly. That's my point. Eternal Guard shouldn't be Spearelves. They should be Eternal Guard.
They're an on-the-fence unit. They straddle the line between core and elite infantry. This hasn't proven to be good game design. Because they try to fill both roles in the army they aren't particularly good at either. They're too expensive to be considered reliable core infantry, and they're too fragile and too weak to be considered elite. I'd like to see them moved to true Special and brought in line with other 8th ed elite infantry, while bringing back to the army a good core of cheap and usable spear-armed infantry.
I'd like to see WE gain the option to play more traditional Warhammer with solid infantry without shoe-horning them into it like they did Beastmen, like ranking up Dryads and Wardancers. Those latter units should be available to players who want to go the guerrilla route.
I also agree with tmarichards that I don't want to see Monstrous Cav in the new book, but I have a feeling they'll be there anyway. Ultimately I just want to see a book with better elf options and rules that make skirmishers more effective.
"I'm on the verge of tears as we arrive at Espace, since I'm positive we won't have a decent table. But we do.
Relief washes over me in an awesome wave."
In the winter,
The long and hallow eaves of the willow
Dance like the shadows of Loec.
Most troops having bows, with the quick to fire special rule would pretty much cover that. Perhaps giving GG back their spears might help too.
As far as the GG Longbow rule on everything; well comparing them to non-8th edition book choices like Chameleons or Repeater Crossbows is a ridiculous idea. Not that I'm particularly vehement against the idea. Just that this specific argument for it is fallacious.
I don't mind ranked Dryads to be fair. Spite Swarms might be nice though. As would Stag Riders. I mean, Juggerknights might make their way in to the next Chaos book, so it's likely.
Dryads fought in ranks before so it wouldn't surprise me if they went back to fighting as a block unit again (much like Beastmen infantry did).
Re-introducing the old Beastmasters would add a bit more variety to the army and be popular with long-term collectors I suspect.
Warning: comments expressed above may not mesh with your world view. Try not to let this upset you.
Yes
Dryads in ranks would work for me. I hate the fact that the current army has like only one ranked close combat infantry unit. And it's not even core. It just seems so strange to me to have a WE army with just one ranked uint. They need a few more to balance it out.
ugh
No please
I really REALLY dislike the idea of a chariot driving through the forest. Too silly for me.
I'm trying to think of a way to make WE work in 8th.
The forest spirits are near enough to being functional as is; wouldn't really matter either way if dryads are ranked or not. Both formations have their uses. Points tweaks are really all that's needed here.
But the elves themselves... far too fragile in combat for the cost. No real easy fix IMO. Cost cuts are deserved for all Elven units, with the biggest cuts for fast cav and wardancers, but that wouldn't be enough IMO. Eternal guard or spear elves or whatever replaces them should be cheap enough to make decent ranked units.
I'm thinking they also need a boost to their manoeuverability. Access to ambush or possibly feigned flight (from the fast cav rules) for much of the elven units would let them dance around enemies instead of just crashing into each other like other armies.
Looking at the other books, it's unlikely that shooting will get much more powerful, nor magic.
Personally, I'd like to see a return of chariots. Chariots suit elven armies quite well IMO, showing that in the warhammer world of laser carts and steam powered tanks, the elves still hark back to an older age.
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∞+1 (just because I can).
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My thoughts
quick to fire on all wood elves
sniper rule on waywatchers
stag riders
swarms of spites
points ajustment in most units unless improvements made on units
what ive heard
massive tree kit(same size as the mutated tree in brb)
more emphasis on seasons of the year
treeman to get throw rock attack(stone thrower)
wardancers to be able to remobe steadfast in some way
I've actually given a lot of though to this, and this is what I would like to see/what I would do if I were able to write an errata update for Wood Elves. To be honest I don't think the book needs a huge overhaul, just a few tweaks in the right places.
Army-wide special rules:
Forest Spirit- the ward save becomes permanent.
Asrai Archery- stays the same, but in addition all units from the Wood Elves army book never suffer a -1 to hit penalty for shooting into or through a forest- having trained in these environments their entire life, they’re fairly used to them.
New- “Forest Dwellers”- if Mysterious Forests are in use, the Wood Elf player may choose what each forest on the board edge is at the start of the game before deployment but after choosing table sides- the type of each forest is made clear to the opponent at the same time. In addition, all units from the Wood Elves army book never lose their Steadfast as a result of fighting in a forest
Copied from the Lizardmen book- “Arboreal Predators”- unlike normal flyers, models with this special rule treat woods as open terrain for movement purposes, including charging and fleeing
Woodland Ambush- the free forest may go anywhere completely within their table half, the FAQ ruling is reversed
Glade Guard longbows- this becomes an army-wide special rule that applies to any model in the army that comes with a bow as part of its initial points cost. This special rule also applies to magic weapons. For example, Waywatchers would become S4 at short range, and so would the Bow of Loren.
Shadow Dances of Loec- instead of picking a dance before the combat, Wardancers (and Wardancer Kindred characters) instead benefit from all 4 of the dances at once, which are cumulative (so the extra attack from Storm of Blades is cancelled out by Woven Mist). The Wardancer Weapons special rule is unchanged.
Army list changes:
Lord characters may take 2 Spites and heroes may take 1 at the points cost listed. These are in addition to, and do not count towards, the character’s magic items allowance.
Treeman Ancient is reduced to 300pts per model
Wood Elf Dragon- gains the “Arboreal Predators” special rule
If a character is mounted on an Eagle, they may join a unit of Warhawk Riders
Spellweavers may take Lore of Light in addition to the lores they already have access to.
Spellsingers may take Lore of Life or Beasts in addition to the lore they already have access to
A complete re-write of the Lore of Athel Loren with Tree Singing as the signature spell, with a change to allow forests to be moved onto enemy units. This would help make small, elite combat units more viable as they would no longer have an option of breaking steadfast. A single unit/bubble spell of re-rolls to hit with shooting could be a nasty 6th spell.
Nobles no longer lose their bow is they are made the BSB, and the BSB upgrade costs 25pts instead of 15pts.
Eternal Guard are always considered a core choice, and have a 5+ ward. Eternal Guard Weapons also grant +1 Strength.
Glade Riders reduced to 20pts per model. Command group options are all changed to 10pts each.
Waywatchers may scout up to 6” away from the enemy, instead of the usual 12”
Wild Riders cost 20pts per model, and the cost of the champion and standard bearer upgrades are reduced to 10pts each.
Glade Guard- all the command group options are changed to 10pts each.
Treekin are reduced to 55pts per model.
Warhawk riders are reduced to 30pts per model; their unit size is altered to 2-20 and they gain the “Arboreal Predators” special rule. The champion upgrade is reduced to 10pts.
Treeman is reduced to 255pts.
Eagles gain the “Arboreal Predators” special rule- this includes characters mounted on eagles.
When purchasing Common Magic Items, the points cost in the Wood Elf book is ignored and instead the points in the main rulebook are used. The list of changes is below:
Sword of Striking- 15pts
Sword of Battle-20 pts
Sword of Might- 15 pts
Enchanted Shield- 5pts
Power Stone- 20pts
War Banner- 35pts
Kindred changes:
Wardancer Kindreds- Highborn upgrade is reduced to 40pts, Noble upgrade is reduced to 25pts
Eternal Kindred- characters may purchase magic weapons and armour and still benefit from the Eternal Guard Fighting Style. Magic Weapons will replace the Eternal Guard Weapons.
The Alter Kindreds- Highborn upgrade cost is reduced to 25pts, Noble upgrade cost is reduced to 15pts. In addition, any close combat/ranged attacks against an Alter Kindred character that use WS/BS suffer an additional -1 to hit on top of any other modifiers.
Scout Kindreds- upgrade cost is reduced to 15pts for a Highborn and 10pts for a Noble)
Wild Rider Kindreds- upgrade cost is reduced to 25pts for a Highborn, and 15pts for a Noble. Characters may also choose additional magic weapons and armour as per a non-Kindred characters.
Waywatcher Kindreds- upgrade cost is reduced to 25pts for a Higborn and 15pts for a Noble.
Glamourweave Kindreds- characters are not forced to buy a mount
Kindred characters may be the general and may bear the BSB (not on the same models, for clarity)
What I would NOT like to see is the addition of monstrous cavalry or a rare war machine- following the OK and Empire releases I'm a little concerned that the game might be pushing towards a level 4, BSB, minimum core 3x4 monstrous cavalry and set of rare toys. Personally, I would be a bit unhappy if every army started to look like that. Also, I think that Stag Riders would be difficult to get right in a Wood Elf book.
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Responses in red.I've actually given a lot of though to this, and this is what I would like to see/what I would do if I were able to write an errata update for Wood Elves. To be honest I don't think the book needs a huge overhaul, just a few tweaks in the right places.
Army-wide special rules:
Forest Spirit- the ward save becomes permanent. YES
Asrai Archery- stays the same, but in addition all units from the Wood Elves army book never suffer a -1 to hit penalty for shooting into or through a forest- having trained in these environments their entire life, they’re fairly used to them. More fluff than anything, but cool
New- “Forest Dwellers”- if Mysterious Forests are in use, the Wood Elf player may choose what each forest on the board edge is at the start of the game before deployment but after choosing table sides- the type of each forest is made clear to the opponent at the same time. In addition, all units from the Wood Elves army book never lose their Steadfast as a result of fighting in a forest I'd change it to the forest(s) they can put down rather than board edge, but I'd let woodies place D3 forests at the start of the game
Copied from the Lizardmen book- “Arboreal Predators”- unlike normal flyers, models with this special rule treat woods as open terrain for movement purposes, including charging and fleeing Makes sense
Woodland Ambush- the free forest may go anywhere completely within their table half, the FAQ ruling is reversed Agreed
Glade Guard longbows- this becomes an army-wide special rule that applies to any model in the army that comes with a bow as part of its initial points cost. This special rule also applies to magic weapons. For example, Waywatchers would become S4 at short range, and so would the Bow of Loren. Makes perfect sense. Why on earth do only some elves use better bows
Shadow Dances of Loec- instead of picking a dance before the combat, Wardancers (and Wardancer Kindred characters) instead benefit from all 4 of the dances at once, which are cumulative (so the extra attack from Storm of Blades is cancelled out by Woven Mist). The Wardancer Weapons special rule is unchanged.
So... ASF, 4+ ward and KB. I'd make the 4++ in combat only + maybe a few other nerfs/ points increases
Army list changes:
Lord characters may take 2 Spites and heroes may take 1 at the points cost listed. These are in addition to, and do not count towards, the character’s magic items allowance.
Characterful as they are, this makes sense
Treeman Ancient is reduced to 300pts per model
I'd love for the Treeman Ancient to get some 'Treeman Only' spites, like a pseudo dragonhelm
Wood Elf Dragon- gains the “Arboreal Predators” special rule F yeah! points drop as well
If a character is mounted on an Eagle, they may join a unit of Warhawk Riders Rather give warhawk as a mount option
Spellweavers may take Lore of Light in addition to the lores they already have access to. No. I've always seen Wood Elves as more Mirkwood than Lothlorien. Shadow fits better, though a matter of my personal opinion
Spellsingers may take Lore of Life or Beasts in addition to the lore they already have access to Hell's to the yeah
A complete re-write of the Lore of Athel Loren with Tree Singing as the signature spell, with a change to allow forests to be moved onto enemy units. This would help make small, elite combat units more viable as they would no longer have an option of breaking steadfast. A single unit/bubble spell of re-rolls to hit with shooting could be a nasty 6th spell. I'll get to this later
Nobles no longer lose their bow is they are made the BSB, and the BSB upgrade costs 25pts instead of 15pts. Agree
Eternal Guard are always considered a core choice, and have a 5+ ward. Eternal Guard Weapons also grant +1 Strength. Hmmm. using Daemonettes as a base (that daemon players insist are undercosted by a point), I'd price this at 13 ppm minimum. Probably 14.
Personally, I'd change them to HA, shield, with spear and +1 S at 12 to 13 ppm. Fighty, anvily and stubborn - not bad for a core choice
Glade Riders reduced to 20pts per model. Command group options are all changed to 10pts each.
Light armour, +1S bows at short range for 24 or 22 ppm
Waywatchers may scout up to 6” away from the enemy, instead of the usual 12”
For the sake of consistency with the rulebook, no
Wild Riders cost 20pts per model, and the cost of the champion and standard bearer upgrades are reduced to 10pts each.
22 ppm. Maybe... though in context with the lore
Glade Guard- all the command group options are changed to 10pts each.
eh. I'd be looking at a points drop as well. Longbows don't give much of a save
Treekin are reduced to 55pts per model.
60, but the champion can take magic items or a spite or something
Warhawk riders are reduced to 30pts per model; their unit size is altered to 2-20 and they gain the “Arboreal Predators” special rule. The champion upgrade is reduced to 10pts.
Seems fine
Treeman is reduced to 255pts.
With a hard 5+ ward and a 3+ armour save? I'd say ~260 to 270
Eagles gain the “Arboreal Predators” special rule- this includes characters mounted on eagles.
again, fluffy and makes sense
When purchasing Common Magic Items, the points cost in the Wood Elf book is ignored and instead the points in the main rulebook are used. The list of changes is below:
Sword of Striking- 15pts
Sword of Battle-20 pts
Sword of Might- 15 pts
Enchanted Shield- 5pts
Power Stone- 20pts
War Banner- 35pts
well, yeah...
Kindred changes:
Wardancer Kindreds- Highborn upgrade is reduced to 40pts, Noble upgrade is reduced to 25pts
Eternal Kindred- characters may purchase magic weapons and armour and still benefit from the Eternal Guard Fighting Style. Magic Weapons will replace the Eternal Guard Weapons.
The Alter Kindreds- Highborn upgrade cost is reduced to 25pts, Noble upgrade cost is reduced to 15pts. In addition, any close combat/ranged attacks against an Alter Kindred character that use WS/BS suffer an additional -1 to hit on top of any other modifiers.
Scout Kindreds- upgrade cost is reduced to 15pts for a Highborn and 10pts for a Noble)
Wild Rider Kindreds- upgrade cost is reduced to 25pts for a Highborn, and 15pts for a Noble. Characters may also choose additional magic weapons and armour as per a non-Kindred characters.
Waywatcher Kindreds- upgrade cost is reduced to 25pts for a Higborn and 15pts for a Noble.
Glamourweave Kindreds- characters are not forced to buy a mount
Kindred characters may be the general and may bear the BSB (not on the same models, for clarity)
Agree with these. The amount of restrictions on these things (and cost) is ridiculous
What I would NOT like to see is the addition of monstrous cavalry or a rare war machine- following the OK and Empire releases I'm a little concerned that the game might be pushing towards a level 4, BSB, minimum core 3x4 monstrous cavalry and set of rare toys. Personally, I would be a bit unhappy if every army started to look like that. Also, I think that Stag Riders would be difficult to get right in a Wood Elf book.
But... Stag KnightsThere are so many jokes to be made, puns to be said. I mean, I could go all night...
Also gives some Heavy Cav in terms of hitting power. Couples with a 5+ ward, they wouldn't be bad at all. If they were to be included, I'd want them to be rare at the very least. The army is about elves and/or forest spirits, not stags
few things I'd add;
Hit and Run applies to Wardancers, Warhawks and both sets of Cavalry
Woodland Ambush places D3 woods. The WE player can elect to designate these as a type of mysterious forest at the start of the game (the opponent is made aware as well)
Forest Strider
Magic; THE LORE OF ATHEL LOREN
Attribute: Forest Kin: Any spell cast on a Forest Spirit, to a unit in a forest or from a mage in a forest receives a +1 bonus to cast. Furthermore, if cast on a Forest Spirit, the unit recovers one wound lost earlier in the battle.
Signature Spell: Tree Singing 5+ (treemen still have it as a 3+ bound)
May select one wood within 24" and move it D6 inches. This can be on top of units (friendly and enemy) or an ongoing combat.
Alternatively, it can be cast at 11+, in which case D3 woods are moved. Furthermore, any tree spirit unit partially inside any forest can be placed in one of the forest(s) that were moved by the effect of the boosted spell [note: 1 unit per forest].
1. The Wandering Wind 7+
Select one enemy unit within 18". That unit's movement value is reduced by D6 to a minimum of 1 until the start of the casters next magic phase.
Alternatively, it can be cast with a value of 16+ and affects all enemy units with a model within 4D6 of the caster
2. The Burning Pyre 10+
Place the small blast template within 24" of the caster. Scatter this by D6". Any model under the template takes a Strength 4 hit. Furthermore, until the start of the casters next magic phase, any model moving through the small blast template suffers a further Strength 4 hit. All hits made by this spell count as flaming attacks.
3. The Healing Water 12+
Select a unit within 24" of the caster. They lose the flammable rule and gain a 2+ ward vs. flaming attacks.
Alternatively, you may cast the spell with a value of 18+. In this case, all friendly units with models within 12" of the caster benefit from this spell
4. The Smashing Ground 14+
Select an enemy unit within 24". Each model is required to take a strength test. Should they fail, they suffer a S4 hit (take armour saves as normal). Furthermore, the unit is required to take a Strength test the next time it elects to move. If it fails, the unit does not move and must test the next time they wish to move as well. If they fail a second time, they do not move but no longer have to test unless targetted by the spell a second time.
5. The Hunter's Call 14+
Select a unit within 24" of the caster. It is allowed to immediately make a move in the magic phase as though it were the remaining moves phase. Furthermore, the unit receive a +1 bonus to hit in the Shooting and Close Combat phase.
Alternatively, the Wizard may cast the spell with a value of 20+. If so, then every unit with a model within 12" of the caster is affected by this spell
6. The Forest's Wrath 15+
*Insert Vortex rules here* take an I test or suffer a single S5 hit. Can be cast at 25+ to use the large round template.
In either case, the caster may elect to make the vortex originate from any forest on the board, rather than him/herself.
Above focusses on Movement debuffs, the Elemental nature of the WE, with some extra 'hunting' stuff and the mandatory vortex.
Last edited by Athlan na Dyr; 25-04-2012 at 11:28.
Agree on most points I have added some comments too, I think they could also do more with the kindreds I would not be against a complete rewrite with new fluff to be honest. Also agree that rather than introucing loads more units they should focus on making the current range more fluffy with upgraded kits and rules.
Don't want to see WE become a horde type army they need to keep the fluff and unique playstyle that was offered in 7th, obviusly it will change but running hordes for steadfast would force me to leave the army and the game.
THE ON MONSTER I REALLY REALLY WANT TO SEE ARE BEARS!
A bear that gets stronger and harder to kill the more damage it takes, no ward/armour save but a high number of wounds to match it special abilities. This would be the kind of unit that would have eight wounds and by the time it is down to 2-3 wounds it is just a wrecking ball of destruction
Last edited by Doommasters; 12-06-2012 at 05:10.
Well this is easy:
Adjust the point costs of everything, as with any update.
New models (I assume we are referring to rules so I'll stop there on that).
Consider additional lores: Beasts, Life and Athel Loren (or whatever it becomes) are fine, consider Heavens maybe or Light (not for balance issues but seems somewhat appropriate but easily could do without).
Easier ways to add some survivability for characters (even though they already have some degrees of this, think Dark Eldar character saves)
Keep some form of either the Sprites or the Kindreds (I'd be happy with either), definitely keep magic bows (not a common type of magic weapon but definitely appropriate).
Some universal rule to at least make them feel elfy (maybe lower their ballistic skill some but give them rerolls to hit in shooting since the other elves have rerolls in combat).
Dryads: remove the lost save to magical attacks...in fact remove that everywhere. No sense in punishing them for playing armies like Daemons who have it out the wazoo.
Either add a new or alter the Eternal Guard (or warriors forget the name) so they have some better rank and file fighters (or give them a special rule to mess with steadfast or step up since it's basically throwing skirmishers at a brick wall at this point).
Go crazy with mounts and monsters, you have a whole forest to use. Additionally could use some monstrous cavalry, those are usually fun (maybe stag cavalry)
Make them less reliant on terrain and/or let them not get clobbered by blood forests (at least the Dryads, Treekin and Tree Men...that's rather silly). Obviously they should retain stuff like wood strider though.
Orcs and Goblins: Actual Wins+5/Actual Ties/Actual Losses-5
Well all elves have re-rolls so why not wood elves to shoot? Plus ap drop the movement rule make them hurt with high ballistic skill,longbows re-roll and armor piercing to represent the highest skill level of archery in whfb,thats what its about for wood elves yeah?Also bring back wood elf warriors in core with no spears,keep it primeative with add hand weapons great weapons and shield options. Keep glade guard with spears/glaives in spec beast masters and bears a deffinate as well as hawks and some form of giant cat!Rare maybe giant predatorial owls that scout?Think demi gryph stats with fly no rider and ld 10(for being wise)And also swarms of forest spirits 5 plus ward!(nasty pointy eared leprechauns or the like!)
Also pump up the movement and initiative values to 6 for standard glade guard and warriors!
There is an entire thread devoted to all this stuff and what needs tweeking on www.asrai.org in the rules development forum
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That's nice.
"4 hours 27 minutes - Time it took between the ETC draft being posted and @tmarichards to ask about his free bow
Tom " Where's my bow?" Richards
My gaming blog: http://tmarichards.blogspot.co.uk/
My Youtube Battle Reports: youtube.com/tmarichards
1. Make us have a scary shooting phase, and make waywatchers one of the few infantry units that can do serious damage from a range.
2. Buff our shooting phase
3. Buff our shooting phase again
4. Buff our shooting phase just to be sure.
I didn't pick high elves for melee or dark elves for magic, I picked Wood Elves for bows.
One thing that may work for Dryads IF they keep Skirmish would be that they and the unit they are in combat with always count as being in a forest. This would setup a nasty synergy with the 'Dancers as a combined punch approach.
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