How Would You Address the Issue of Slann Mage-Priests?

[Adohi-Tehe]

In my readings of various discussions on Warseer regarding what is "overpowered" it seems that a number of people feel that Slann Mage-Priests fall under the category of things that are overpowered. Personally I feel the only thing wrong with Slann as they currently exist has to do with Cupped Hands being able to bounce miscasts. I myself would just increase the points of Cupped Hands and then eliminate the miscast bounce and one use only. The other option in my mind is to give the Slann some other special rule or purchasable ability to limit miscasts. For example, a discipline that would only have the Slann IF and miscast on the role of three or more 6s.

I was wondering how others would like to see this addressed in the 8th edition Lizardmen army book and look forward to reading your thoughts on the matter.


Cheers
Adohi-Tehe

[decker_cky]

Don't slann have a discipline allowing them to reroll miscasts? Cut out the cupped hands and they're still a stupidly good deal. Cut out the cupped hands and the ability to add free power dice to each spell and they're still a good deal. If you're fixing that, there's other magic phase ruining arcane items that need to be dealt with too (puppet stands out to me).

[Walgis]

Slann has no problem its a very good mage and he has to be one. ifyou will nerf slann all our units must have a big pont drop because almost all units are over priced. In other hand slann aint op itsmagick lores who make them op. so as i always say, dont fix 12 army books one by one with comp, fix BRB thats only 1 book.

[g0ddy]

The base points cost is pretty outrageous when compared to other wizards, especially elven ones.

250-260 points... T3 3W, no save, special rules limited to 1 S3 ASF attack... bonus power dice usage or a long bow bundled into cost.
vs.
275 pts... T4 5?(6?) wounds... 4+ ward save, 50 point power built in.

Even taking an empire wizard lord and adding a 4+ ward save and a 50 point power, you're saving 20 pts and gaining nearly double your wounds.
This doesn't even begin to address problematic item/ability combinations that have few if any restrictions.

Free Power Dice (Not a problem in itself, just extremely effective, might as well just be a base ability of the slann.)
Becalming Cognition (Potential Fix : discarded roll of a 6 becomes a 1 not a zero. Prevent abusive occurrences of loss of concentration. Perhaps only effects one 6 rolled per spell cast.)
and Cupped Hands. (Simply requiring the decision o bounce the effect be made before finding out what it is would perhaps be sufficient here.)

You end up with a very reasonably priced, nearly unassailable mage lord, general and BSB - rolled into one - with fantastic magical prowess.

[Sexiest_hero]

cupped hands is the only big issue, tone it down.

[sulla]

Drop cupped hands, change +1 power dice power to +1 to cast, change loremaster to +1 spell and he's fine IMO.

He's supposed to be powerful; this will leave him powerful but bring him back into line with 8th edition.

[Ender Shadowkin]

I dont really care about cupped hands, its one use only, and isn't automatic, most of the slanes tool up with throne of vines anyway. What is really frustrating is the Loremaster plus extra power dice combo. It essentially gives them an extra 5-6 power dice per phase, which totally disrupts the 8th ed disple to power dice ballance. Its just a glaringly incompatible thing with 8th edition (like dark elves throwing 9 dice at mind razor). Warhammer is frustraing when one player makes all the dice rolls for an extended period of time, such as when facing gunlines, or when a slann dials up an effective 13 power dice every phase

[snyggejygge]

Slann has no problem its a very good mage and he has to be one. ifyou will nerf slann all our units must have a big pont drop because almost all units are over priced. In other hand slann aint op itsmagick lores who make them op. so as i always say, dont fix 12 army books one by one with comp, fix BRB thats only 1 book.

What have you been smoking??? Yes the brb lores are better now, but the slann was OP under 7:th edition as well, cupped hands & a very low basecost makes him the most pointsefficent mage in the game. Drop Cupped hands & increase the pointscost of the slann & we're looking at a more balanced model.
Also Lizardmen units aren't overpriced compared to the new 8:th edition books, just compred to 7:th edition books, so those could be the same & the book all of a sudden becomes just right for 8:th edition.

[Urgat]

Slaans don't need to be nerfed, they MUST be monstrous at magic. They should cost a lot more though, a slaan has no place in a skirmish anyway. They should be equivalents to greater demons in both cost and efficiency.

[tmarichards]

A massive points cost would be in order. Or, simple make all their abilities more expensive- 50pts for a Discipline is pretty good when you already get one for free, I wouldn't mind seeing them capped at just one extra for 100pts. I'm ok with them having more wounds and being able to channel spells through Priests and being able to hide in the second rank (sort of :/), as every race's mage needs to have something different to set them apart- the game might be more balanced if every army had access to a WS3 T3 200pt level 3 with a 35pt upgrade to a level 4, but it would certainly lose flavour.

Either way, I'd be in favour of the current party Slann/double Slann builds not being possible below 3K.

[Gaargod]

The fact Cupped Hands is an automatic choice tells you its too good for the price.

However otherwise... They could do with a price hike, but perhaps not that much. T4 W5 4+ is less useful than you think, considering he sits in the second rank of models with LoS. And vice versa. Telepathy is very rarely used too.

Now look at the new Slaughtermaster. With the level 4 upgrade, he's 285pts - which gets you a *much* better statline, including an actual presence in combat. Although, importantly, only LD8, nor 4++. Or compare, say, Goblin Great Shamans who again, with Lv4, are only 180pts but with a worse statline.
By using those sorts of comparisons, I'd say the Slann could do with a slight price hike. 300pts wouldn't be out of order, maybe even 325pts.


Personally, I see no problem with Loremaster. It's a Slann - they've spent a lot of time learning spells. More than everyone else, including the poncy elves in their tower. Becalming Cogitation could do with a nerf, maybe - possibly something like 'doesn't break concentration if the spell would have cast'.
Focused Rumination is another issue. For a start, if they were taking it, it shouldn't be a choice, but a basic part of the Slann. Whether it should be taken is a different issue - GW seem to be charging a huge premium for dice adding abilities at the moment - look at Black Periapt, a massive 55pts for just the ability to store 2 dice. Continuing that logic, I suspect they won't have the ability at all.
Which is sad. Slann have had that ability for as long as their current incarnation (non-combat toad sitting on a rock, overseeing with magic, etc) has been around. Hopefully they'll figure out a way to keep it without just being lazy and keeping it as it is with a 100pts price tag.


Oh, and this is all rather elementary. I'd rather expect the new LM book to be shaking a lot of these things up, so I doubt we'll be seeing identical copies of stuff anywhere.

[Tarliyn]

Cupped Hands does what it does to kinda replicate how the slann was immune to miscasts in the past. Also replacing +1 dice with +1 to cast is a horrible trade and would be going overboard with it. Before we go nerfing the slann to the ground how about we fix the rest of the internal balance issues in the book. Then a "fix" to the slann can be properly handled.

Just saying everyone always jumps on the lets fix this op model without wanting to fix the weaker stuff or even considering the wider ramifcations of what would happen to the army.

Each army has stronger things and
Weaker things based off the context of the army. Are lizardmen as a whole op? Common internet wisdom says they are, my experince with them has said they are a very solid
Army but also managable. But that is all perspective anyway. Cant destroy one without fixing another and call it good.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tarliyn]

Double post




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Scammel]

Cupped Hands does what it does to kinda replicate how the slann was immune to miscasts in the past.

Miscasts have much greater significance today than they did in 7th, namely due to the table being a lot nastier and it's association with IR. At the very least, it shouldn't be bouncing it onto other wizards.

Also replacing +1 dice with +1 to cast is a horrible trade and would be going overboard with it.

Going over board? Not really. Level 4 wizards are supreme masters of magic, with most races being able to boast only a handful of their like. +5 to cast represents a magic user who is one in a million even amongst their own kind, rather fitting for a Slann.

[yarrickson]

Overpowered? Slann? I have to disagree. A good one with all the toys costs over 500 points and no matter what you do you can never make him wholly immune to warhammer. I think slann are just fine as is.

[shakedown47]

Slaan need a price hike with a base cost of at least, and probably north of, 300 points, while keeping the same statline and base ward save. Focused Rumination needs to be changed to instead add +D3 power die at the start of the magic phase. Becalming Cogitation should be changed to force the enemy wizard to re-roll 6s. Cupped Hands needs to be changed to something like one of these: lose its One Use Only restriction, 5 point increase, but only work on a 5+; 5 point increase, but only work on a 4+; or, my favorite, drop the point cost to 25 and change the item to allow the Slann to ignore the damage component of any miscast on a 2+ (but NOT the 50% chance to lose him in a dimensional cascade.) They can already be made to re-roll miscasts, they don't need more miscast protection than that.

[The bearded one]

or, my favorite, drop the point cost to 25 and change the item to allow the Slann to ignore the damage component of any miscast on a 2+ (but NOT the 50% chance to lose him in a dimensional cascade.) They can already be made to re-roll miscasts, they don't need more miscast protection than that.

being able to protect against dimensional cascade is kinda the only reason I actually have the thing I'd be happier with its current incarnation if it didn't bounce to an enemy, but were cheaper.. miscastprotection is the only purpose it has for me, to prevent me from blowing up 160pts worth of templeguard on an innocent spell.

While some nerfing and repricing is in order, do not lose sight of what a Slann is. They're the kind of guys who move tectonic plates around, bend reality to their will and set up protective magical shield bubbles around an entire templecity that kills enemies when they attack it, and which they can let explode outward when it starts to fail. They're supposed to be better than your average level 4. I'd personally like the generation-system to return, so GW could write several variations of the slann ruleset with according pointcosts.

[Hawthorne]

Okay hear me out:
Get rid of that palaquin and put him in the front lines of the temple guard unit so he's not as protected evenning that up. Now being upfront will mandate some weapons and armor as he's a big target he'll need it.
His magic is a bit over the top, tone it down to a standard level 3-4 wizard and cut out those stupid upgrades; just give him access to about 8-10 magic items in the new book.
Give him the extra power dice, he deserves it, make it work like Night Goblin magic mushrooms; so there's some risk involved.
Of course being a lord option he does need some mount options so give him the options for a Steg (cause he needs one), or a Carnasaur (make it work GW).
It may contradict the fluff, but just mess it around a little; throw in some chaos and BAM! Slaan problem solved.

Thank me later.

[The bearded one]

before or after you killed everything that what traditionally makes a slann what it is?

[shakedown47]

before or after you killed everything that what traditionally makes a slann what it is?

I agree that the basic nature of the Slann should remain in place, just that his point costs need to reflect his abilities. The two major mechanics that keep the magic phase in check is the miscast table and the limited and random availability of power die...the Slann care about neither (especially if the 6th edition Slann are resurrected.) I'm all for rules that represent fluff, so I'm okay with extra-power-die generating, miscast-ignoring, 4+ ward save, 5 wound, temple guard-bunkering, Loremaster Slann, I just need them to cost northward of 600 points for it to makes sense in my head, because right now I look at the 370 point Slann and my 370 point Sorcerer Lord and scratch my head in confusion.