How Would You Address the Issue of Slann Mage-Priests?

[BooTMGSG]

I accept there is the Etheral Light option that works nicely with blocks of Saurus, but it stops us from using Temple Guards, WS4, Str5 is perhaps as killy as they come with Lizardmen and even then its not much when facing off Armor.
Perhaps letting Saurus use 2H weapons would give us another option for killing.
Skrox, are a potential killy unit, but its only 6/9 strenght 6 hits and while it can hurt, (WS10 will go from 3 to 6, 4.5 to 6 hits) its not exactly a blood bath.

[Eladimir]

I know many people take issue with cupped hands, but the item is crucial to using the Slann Mage Priest using any lore other than Life.
Most lvl 4 casters are 20mmx20mm set on the corner of the unit. The slann has to be second rank of the temple guard (16pts/model) and is 50mmx50mm. When the Slann miscasts the results are almost always very expensive. The ONLY anti miscast the slann can get is cupped hands hence why everyone has to take it.

Personally I think the slann is pretty reasonable right now, becalming cognitation could use a tweak down, 6 into 1's maybe.

[The bearded one]

becalming cognitation could use a tweak down, 6 into 1's maybe.

or perhaps that all 6's have to be rerolled.

[Phazael]

Drop cupped hands and change the bonus dice to reroll one casting roll per turn and most of the issues would be fixed. Becalming is a big offender, too, but that is defensive and only matters because the loremaster extra dice frog can buff his TG unit into demigodhood. Those two changes would make the Slaan still really good without basically defining the enitire army. Cupped is the main issue, though. If you want to be a jerk and 6 dice dwellers through, it had better be you that eats the consequences and not the enemy wizard. If people were just using it for miscast protection you would not see practically every life slaan sporting one.

[vcassano]

As already stated earlier, there are worse abusers of magic elsewhere in the game, Teclis, Fateweaver, book of hoeth mage lord, bray shaman conclave etc etc. I genuinely think that the slann are appropriately costed at the moment.

Bray Shaman conclave? What?! They can generate more magic, but it comes at a significant advantage - being left at the back edge in a hyper-aggressive army. It leaves you split and vulnerable to some. Not abusive at all.

[The bearded one]

Drop cupped hands and change the bonus dice to reroll one casting roll per turn and most of the issues would be fixed. Becalming is a big offender, too, but that is defensive and only matters because the loremaster extra dice frog can buff his TG unit into demigodhood. Those two changes would make the Slaan still really good without basically defining the enitire army. Cupped is the main issue, though. If you want to be a jerk and 6 dice dwellers through, it had better be you that eats the consequences and not the enemy wizard. If people were just using it for miscast protection you would not see practically every life slaan sporting one.

I have a notorious habit of rolling 1's on my vines, on IFs caused by small 2-3 dice spells. I recall a game where the slann miscast 4 times in the first 3 turns, none of the spells larger than 3 dice, and failed all 4 of his vines saves.

[N810]

How about we trade in the cupped hands for getting our old ability and just be completely immune to miscast again.

[The bearded one]

How about we trade in the cupped hands for getting our old ability and just be completely immune to miscast again.

Or the first miscast each turn (I wouldn't be adverse to paying up to 100 points for that..)

[warplock]

I have always liked the idea of them ignoring miscasts but also ignoring irresistible force. It shows how they are completely in control and are so important they'd never risk getting sucked into the warp. I saw someone suggest giving them the option to either cast 'safely' like that, or to cast normally and be able to get IF but not ignore the miscast, an idea which I also like.

[Eladimir]

Interesting idea Warplock

[Maoriboy007]

Lose Cupped Hands or make it work before rolling on the miscast table.
Becalming could just re-roll 6s on an opponants casting rolls.
Rumination could instead count all miscasts as a roll of 7 on the miscast table and/or half the amount of dice drained from the pool.

[tmarichards]

I'm not sure the no miscasts but no IF idea would work. Most Slann magic phases revolve around abusing Loremaster and/or extra dice to cast multiple spells on 2-3 "natural" dice each. For example, a Light Slann can easily cast Pha's, Speed of Light and Timewarp off a 6 dice magic phase (all of which are must-stop spells on a SKrox/Saurus unit, or even on a Scar-Vet because M14 on them is utterly absurd- and let's not forget, he can bubble these to affect all of the above but often doesn't need to because of the combat variety options offered by the different abilities of the Scar-Vets, SKrox and Saurus who cover each the weaknesses each unit has beautifully), and if he gets more dice he can chuck some magic missiles around. With this sort of dice management, the double 6 is pretty rare. Death Slann can do the exact same thing- snipe, snipe (maybe a 3rd snipe if within 12"), Soulblight then Doom and Darkness on the Salamander target.

If they're going down the 6 dice big spell every turn route then that might work (which is the simplest but far from the most effective way to use them), but the biggest issue in the current game is that Focused Rumination and Loremaster gives them a ridiculously cost efficient phase that is absurdly hard for an opponent to stop. Loremaster also gets them around one of the bigger issues that spellcasters have, which is only getting 4 spells and often ending up with at least 1 which is useless and another 1-2 that are irrelevant in any given magic phase. So, most casters (who, bear in mind, are near enough the same points) often only have a couple of spells that are any good in any given situation which makes the anti-magic easier to deal with, but Slann don't have this problem unless you go the double frog route in which case you have the redundancy from Lore choices (the more common builds favour miscast protection with maybe 1 Ruminating) which means that trying to put together an anti-magic phase is very difficult if not impossible. It's why Lizard magic phases are at their most effective when they roll a low double on the Winds, because they can still power a great phase but their opponent only has 2-3 dispel dice.

All you do by taking out the miscast is remove the (already slight) chance that they will hurt themselves/their army by rolling the double 6, because the Irresistible Force from the double 6 simply isn't a mechanic that helps them.

[Clockwork]

Isn't the maximum characteristic 10, so even a Timewarped mounted Scar-Vet only be maximum movement 10?

[tmarichards]

Good point. Even at M10 they're still nasty, to say nothing of the other effects of the spell.

[ewar]

I'm not sure the no miscasts but no IF idea would work. Most Slann magic phases revolve around abusing Loremaster and/or extra dice to cast multiple spells on 2-3 "natural" dice each. For example, a Light Slann can easily cast Pha's, Speed of Light and Timewarp off a 6 dice magic phase (all of which are must-stop spells on a SKrox/Saurus unit, or even on a Scar-Vet because M14 on them is utterly absurd- and let's not forget, he can bubble these to affect all of the above but often doesn't need to because of the combat variety options offered by the different abilities of the Scar-Vets, SKrox and Saurus who cover each the weaknesses each unit has beautifully), and if he gets more dice he can chuck some magic missiles around. With this sort of dice management, the double 6 is pretty rare. Death Slann can do the exact same thing- snipe, snipe (maybe a 3rd snipe if within 12"), Soulblight then Doom and Darkness on the Salamander target.

If they're going down the 6 dice big spell every turn route then that might work (which is the simplest but far from the most effective way to use them), but the biggest issue in the current game is that Focused Rumination and Loremaster gives them a ridiculously cost efficient phase that is absurdly hard for an opponent to stop. Loremaster also gets them around one of the bigger issues that spellcasters have, which is only getting 4 spells and often ending up with at least 1 which is useless and another 1-2 that are irrelevant in any given magic phase. So, most casters (who, bear in mind, are near enough the same points) often only have a couple of spells that are any good in any given situation which makes the anti-magic easier to deal with, but Slann don't have this problem unless you go the double frog route in which case you have the redundancy from Lore choices (the more common builds favour miscast protection with maybe 1 Ruminating) which means that trying to put together an anti-magic phase is very difficult if not impossible. It's why Lizard magic phases are at their most effective when they roll a low double on the Winds, because they can still power a great phase but their opponent only has 2-3 dispel dice.

All you do by taking out the miscast is remove the (already slight) chance that they will hurt themselves/their army by rolling the double 6, because the Irresistible Force from the double 6 simply isn't a mechanic that helps them.

The only thing absurd about this is casting light spells on Skrox - complete waste of power dice. Movemnt is capped at 10, so you've been cheated if people are sending M14 vets at you.

The opponent also does have some dispel dice by the way... let's try not to forget that.

And as for the statement that they cost the same as everyone else's casters - thats a complete joke right? You just outlined abilities which cost at least 400pts, assuming he's the BSB and take no magic items.

You can take 2 slanns, but each will have rumination and nothing else. Personally I love the slann as is, he needs to cost about 320pts with the free ability and cupped hands needs to go - I've stopped taking it as winning games like that is utterly unfun and devoid of skill. I've killed Teclis turn 1 by passing a dimensional cascade to him... was funny once, but it takes too long to set up a game to have that happen again.

[The bearded one]

I've killed Teclis turn 1 by passing a dimensional cascade to him...

You're my hero.


The basic package of the slann definately needs a pointsincrease. With the 4+ ward built in and a free discipline, he probably starts out cheaper and better than an equivalent level 4 of another army. Focussed ruminations is no doubt the best of the disciplines and I figure it will disappear, be rewritten or drasitcally more expensive in a future lizzie book.

[Don Zeko]

I'm with Tom on that no IF/no miscast idea. That would be an absolutely enormous buff for Slann, who win the magic phase by casting many spells with 2-3 dice in order to maximize the benefit from Rumination. To my mind, rumination is the real problem if you want to nerf the Slann's casting (rather than just making it more expensive). Slann as is with no rumination would be only marginally better than most other magic phases, and worse than the better ones out there (DE, for example).

[tmarichards]

I think we're going to have to agree to diasgree on the SKrox/Light magic issue. Fortunately, siding with me in favour of Light magic and SKrox against the Life Slann in Temple Guard block (that was, admittedly, popular a year and a bit ago) is pretty much the entire tournament scene including some of the best players in the UK. Read into that what you will.

The opponent does indeed have some dispel dice, so let's look at an average phase against a Ruminating Loremaster Death Slann (if they're this tricked out then they are almost always also the BSB, often with the Standard of Discipline) who is able to march forwards turn 1 and gets into range of a couple of characters unless you hide them a long way back, and even if this is the case then turn 2 they can almost always be targeted. Magic roll is a 4 and a 3.

First spell- 1 dice + a free on Spirit Leech. Can't really let this go (especially if you target a 2 wound character which is most BSBs), depending on casting roll it will draw out 2-3 dispel dice.

Second spell- 2 dice + a free on boosted Caress. Again, can't really let this go (especially if it is cast at most caster lords who are S3) so it'll draw out 2-3 dispel dice or a scroll.

Third spell- 2 dice + a free one on Doom and Darkness- this is less of an issue depending on what it is cast on and whether you have managed to deal with the Salamanders, so perhaps this one can be allowed to go off. It certainly cannot be allowed to go off, however, if the Scar-Vets have gotten into combat because it will neuter Steadfast to an extent.

4th spell- 2 dice + a free on Soulblight which can go on a variety of targets- something fighting the SKrox, or something the Salamanders are looking at, or else just something that Saurus are fighting. Between these 4 spells, in order to stop all of them on an average magic roll you will need to burn all your dice and your scroll and you'll at most only stop 3- leaving one to go off, and you only get one scroll (barring obvious exceptions).

At closer ranges, you can even go with Fate of Bjuna as well for a 5th spell, cutting one dice from the Soulblight casting and one from the Doom and Darkness casting (a slightly below average casting roll of 6 still casts the spell) for 2 dice + a free one.

The reason I'm, using both ranged and combat examples is to illustrate that this sort of situation isn't reliant on being in combat or being at range, but can instead be occurring from literally the first turn. Maintaining a scroll is difficult beyond turn 2-3.

In order to get this combination, you need to spend 365pts for which you get to know the entire Lore for free, +1 dice per spell, ld10 and a 4++. Other lord level characters come in at around 260 once upgraded to a level 4, which goes up to just over 300pts if they want the same ward save and higher still if they have any other magic items. A Wood Elf level 4 with a scroll and 4++, for example, comes in at 320 which is just 45 points less with no free dice, no Loremaster and no ld10 bubble. A Savage Orc level 4 with Fencer's Blades and Shrunken Head comes in at 75 pts less for one less pip of ward save, no extra dice, no Loremaster and 2 less pips of leadership.

Neither of these examples can feasibly power 5 spells from an average dice magic phase- in fact, neither of them even knows 5 spells to begin with.

It's not even just limited to Death magic- look at facing Light magic when fighting against a Saurus unit (and, just for the sake of the argument, imagine it on a SKrox unit as well). Again, assume an average magic phase of 4 and 3 on Winds of Magic.

First spell- 1 dice + a free on Pha's. Given the relatively poor WS of Saurus (3), most opponents can let this go and deal with hitting with less attacks. Even so, it has immediately covered one of the biggest weaknesses of Saurus which is that they're easy to hit, and it covers the low T of the Skinks by making them harder to hit.

Second spell- 2 dice + a free on Speed of Light. This simply cannot be allowed to go off, especially if you let Pha's go so there goes probably all the dispel dice (there's no point just chucking 3 as you won't be able to get rid of anything with your last one, and unless the frog rolled badly you won't be able to get with just 2).

Third spell- 2 dice + a free on Timewarp. Again, if this goes off it will ruin your day so you need to stop it. No dice left, so there goes your scroll.

Fourth spell- 2 dice + a free on Net on your Wizard bunker. 50-50 chance that most mages will not, in fact, be casting spells next turn. No dispel dice left, no scroll. Ouch.

With a lower Winds roll, this can even go down to 1 dice on Speed of Light and 1 dice on Net. Before you get into combat you can use Net, Burning Gaze and Banishment to make sure the Dispel Scroll is gone.

As with all enemy mages, the most effective way to stop them casting is to kill them. Unfortunately he can hide in a skink bunker behind the main combat line so he is hard to get to and has more 2 more wounds and has 1 more pip of toughness than most other mages and he comes with a 4++ as standard, so he's pretty much immune to the vast majority of the usual range of mage killers.

Yes, you can trick the Slann out to the gills until he costs 600 odd points, but you don't have to in order to make him ridiculously effective.

[dagreenmoonboyz]

I understand where people are coming from with the slann being efficient and quite strong but look at context. Most other army's have access to multiple lores at hero level. Lizards get heavens... Meh it's ok. So really your stacking most of your casting on one wizard. Give lore of beasts and mayb something else to skinks and sure I'm cool with toning down slann.

As for becalming I get it it's stupid for an oppenent but we sort of need something to push the insta death spells away from our expensive troops (pit of shades or purple sun.) I'll agree with reroll 6s though that sounds reasonable. But losing a slann to dwellers or the slann and most of your temple guard to PoS is a quick way to end a game.

Cupped Hands needs a re-tooling period but that's not the slanns fault.

Lore master and Rumination fluff wise make total sense, game wise the synergy is a little much extra d3 power dice seems cool instead for rumination.

Overall though a your talking about a 445 point investment on one model. I sort of hope he is BA for that, very good? Yes. OP? Not really considering the rest of the rest of the army.(ok I caught myself salamanders are too cheap )

[Rosstifer]

OP? Not really considering the rest of the rest of the army.

You mean Scar Vets on Cold Ones, Salamanders, Saurus, Skink Krox and millions of Skinks? Yes, the rest of the Lizardmen army is nice and soft