How Would You Address the Issue of Slann Mage-Priests?

[decker_cky]

Drop cupped hands, change +1 power dice power to +1 to cast, change loremaster to +1 spell and he's fine IMO.

He's supposed to be powerful; this will leave him powerful but bring him back into line with 8th edition.

Make cupped hands ignore a single miscast at the same price, no passing on. That and soul stone give some of the best miscast protection available. Change +1 power dice power to +1 to cast and +1 to dispel and it's similar to other powers available in the list (also opens possibility of a +6/+6 slann). Loremaster isn't really a problem. It's good, but not a problem,

I know many people take issue with cupped hands, but the item is crucial to using the Slann Mage Priest using any lore other than Life.
Most lvl 4 casters are 20mmx20mm set on the corner of the unit. The slann has to be second rank of the temple guard (16pts/model) and is 50mmx50mm. When the Slann miscasts the results are almost always very expensive. The ONLY anti miscast the slann can get is cupped hands hence why everyone has to take it.

Personally I think the slann is pretty reasonable right now, becalming cognitation could use a tweak down, 6 into 1's maybe.

You don't have to take temple guard. Put a slann on the corner of a saurus unit and he's only contacting 5 models. Can keep him alive with fencer's blades or healing potion if you're afraid of losing him in combat.

Also, soul stone is available as miscast protection for a slann - that alone is better than almost everyone else (there's a few 1 shot miscast ignores left, and the puppet which are better).

But Heavens is a terrible lore with not even a single vaguely good spell in it. Especially the default signature spell, it's terrible.

Heavens is good. The signature spell is good (-1 to hit means you should win combat, and it gives -1 leadership too, so units are more likely to break...and you can stack it multiple times or stack it with doom and darkness). The rerolling 6/1 spells are also very good spells that can be bubbled. Light and life are probably more useful to lizardmen, but heavens is underrated.

[N810]

That would take him back to his 6th edition cost.
(without his 6th edition abilites)

Oh yea you keep refering to one cost (naked Slann),
and the list the abilites of a fully kited out Slann (double the cost),
like they where the same thing, and then call him undercosted.

Ps. no one uses the soul stone because it's terrible,
you are just reroling on the miscast table hoping to
get a less terrible miscast.... but you still miscast,
and posibly the same miscast result you just had or worse.

[decker_cky]

That would take him back to his 6th edition cost.

Oh yea you keep refering to one cost (naked Slann),
and the list the abilites of a fully kited out Slann (double the cost),
like they where the same thing, and then call him undercosted.

A naked slann is clearly badly underpriced. If you find upgrades to be essential....those are likely good value. Underpriced + good value upgrades = underpriced model. If you're buying overpriced upgrades...don't.

[N810]

In order for him to live trough six rounds and be somewhat effective he usualy need at least 150 points of upgrades and a 400 and some point unit to protect him plus command for that unit another 50-100 points.

And he/his unit can still be taken out fairly easily by a miscast/dwellers/pit of shades/dereaded 13th/purple sun/greedy fist/tecelis/brass orb, cannon, ect...

[dagreenmoonboyz]

I agree that the slaan should keep their uniqueness as a very strong caster, as well as a very central character to the army to suit the fluff (general & BSB at once). To reflect that though, the base cost should go way up, like a 33% increase.[/QUOTE]

So you want a lvl 4 wizard no items who is a bsb to cost 400pts? Makes sense.

I agree with tmrichards everyone with opposing view points is stupid.

[decker_cky]

In order for him to live trough six rounds and be somewhat effective he usualy need at least 150 points of upgrades and a 400 and some point unit to protect him plus command for that unit another 50-100 points.

And he/his unit can still be taken out fairly easily by a miscast/dwellers/pit of shades/dereaded 13th/purple sun/greedy fist/tecelis/brass orb, cannon, ect...

He's vulnerable to dwellers....like almost every wizard.

Saurus based units are vulnerable to initiative stuff....like 1/3 of the armies in the game.

Slann miscasts rolling 7 cause more hits than other wizards. Slann miscasts with templates cause less hits than other wizards. That balances out.

Slann are less vulnerable to cannons than other wizards (build in ward and extra wounds is much more protection than a slightly longer base makes him vulnerable).

Every wizard is vulnerable to greedy fist. Slann often know a full lore, so are less likely to be completely neutered by greedy fist.

Not sure why Teclis is listed. He's just a wizard who can get more spells through than normal.

Wizards that don't have other miscast protection take the earthing rod - a half price one use soul stone. It would probably be a regular choice if those wizards could take a soul stone that didn't come from magic allocation. You only say soul stone is terrible because you're spoiled with the cupped hands.

A slann, like every other wizard, needs a bunker of some kind. Couldn't you even hide the slann on the side of a skink unit behind a saurus wall? Skinks aren't the best value, but 20 skinks behind a saurus wall seems like a nice, relatively cheap place to hide a slann. If not, 15 saurus isn't too bad expensive. I regularly see much less resilient wizards survive through a game than a basic slann, so even a 315 pt Ld 10 BSB slann should be all you need. Add miscast protection to that and you're laughing.

[decker_cky]

So you want a lvl 4 wizard no items who is a bsb to cost 400pts? Makes sense.

A wizard with a built in ward, a free power die on each spell, BSB and the ability to take both a magic banner and 100 pts of magic items is easily worth 400 pts to any army.

[BooTMGSG]

Wizards that don't have other miscast protection take the earthing rod - a half price one use soul stone. It would probably be a regular choice if those wizards could take a soul stone that didn't come from magic allocation. You only say soul stone is terrible because you're spoiled with the cupped hands.

Stone soul is pretty worthless.
If you are in a bunker, the only miscast that is ok, is power drain (lose power dice), 8-9, with the one where you lose D3 levels a passible second. All the others rip through your templeguards.
If you are a lone slann it is also worthless, cos most of them will blow up the surounding nothing, so why spend 50pts on a reroll?
I mean why would you bother to pick up the dice and reroll? You'll prbably make things worse.

[The bearded one]

Slann miscasts rolling 7 cause more hits than other wizards. Slann miscasts with templates cause less hits than other wizards. That balances out.

?

I'm gonna check howmany models a slann hits with large and small template compared to a normal wizard. I'm certain it's more, but hey, who knows.

[Phazael]

Good, sure. Completely impervious and a giant island of point denial? Absolutely not. Unless you are the kind of guy who likes games where two gigantic deathstars slap into each other for 6 turns and neither army gives up any VPs.....

The naked Slaan would be a steal in any other army, which is a fact. His entire design encourages the point denial deathstar build, but thats the basis for the LM book. I am fine with that. What I am not fine with is the frog rattling off 4-6 spells a turn, risk free, and even dumping miscasts on opposing wizards. You cannot be super powerful defensively AND offensively AND undercosted. Honestly, I am fine with the Slaan as a defensive L4, provided a normal magic defense has some capacity to stop him from dropping the entire Lore of Light (or Life) every turn, which is why I made the suggestions I did. Let me repeat them:

Cupped Hands: Get rid of it. (Our events ban it already) Its mainly used by jerks who intentionally try and blow up enemy wizards, especially on 6 dice dwellers.

Focused Rumination: Change it to rerolling casting rolls. This lets you reroll double 6s if you want, to avoid miscasts, and lets you be more aggressive with the casting dice without breaking the balance of dice.

Becalming Cogitation: Change it to rerolling dispell rolls. This would still be very strong and still let the opponent use his wizard.

The rest of the Slaan can remain unchanged, in all his undercosted point denial glory.

[dagreenmoonboyz]

You don't have to spend 500pts for him to be good.

You don't have to spend 350pts on a bunker for him to be good.

This really should be obvious...

Not everyone plays super comped formats ...what works in ETC doesn't work so hot other places, should be obvious.

[The bearded one]

and even dumping miscasts on opposing wizards.

a miscast. If you're gonna underplay siren song, don't overplay cupped hands
But in all seriousness I only use cupped hands as miscast protection. Often I just bounce the miscast over to the enemy's secondary wizard (the lvl1, lvl2 scroll caddy), instead of their lvl4, to keep the game fun. In the interest of enjoyable games I would probably prefer the bouncing aspect to be removed but keep the rest the same.

Focused Rumination: Change it to rerolling casting rolls. This lets you reroll double 6s if you want, to avoid miscasts, and lets you be more aggressive with the casting dice without breaking the balance of dice.

Becalming Cogitation: Change it to rerolling dispell rolls. This would still be very strong and still let the opponent use his wizard.

You know, I'd be quite fine with these (though I'd miss being able to prevent someone 6-dicing (or more -> dark elves) the #6 spells)

My personal preference would of course to keep focussed rumination as is, but it is obviously amongst the most powerful abilities in the game. Even at 100-150 points I would consider taking it.

[tmarichards]

Go back 2 pages and read the very long post with detailed examples that I put up about how an uncomped Slann can come in at 365pts and be better than any other Lord level caster in the game.

[Djekar]

In what way does uncomped warhammer necessitate a 500 point Slann? In what way does it necessitate a 350 point bunker? Obviously I don't play Lizardmen, but I am curious what you feel is so threatening as to require a minimum of 850 point investment in a Slann.

I would imagine (as I play uncomped warhammer) that if I wanted to be nasty I would field a Slann with as few upgrades as possible (to get more troops on the field) and if I felt like I needed a bunker (either because I didn't want to spend 50 points on Ethereal or because Ethereal doesn't work in my particular meta) I would take skink cohorts - again to squeeze more killy troops onto the field.

[yarrickson]

I am a fan of the Lone Slann, yeah there'll be the occasional game where he'll get bummed by Forest Spirits or someone'll get a perfect pit of shades on him. But I don't reckon we can complain about losing our 4-600 point general/bsb occasionally when the other 3 games out of 4 he'll power up the rest of the army like a boss.

Temple guard are a major points sink, I generally only use them in very rare games of storm of magic or such. I'd much prefer more units of Skinks/Kroxigor/stegadons/ancient stegadons and use the Lore of Lights area buffs on them.

To add something positive to the debate, I'd suggest that if the Slann simply came with Loremaster and could buy +1 to cast for 50 points and +1 to dispel for 50 points instead of Focused Rumination, Focus of Mystery and Becalming Cogitation and cupped hands simply allowed a re-roll on the miscast chart and therefore replace soul of stone, then I know I'd still be pretty happy. That way your decent slann would still cost a good chunk over 400 points and would not have the more "unusual" abilities that seems to be giving people cause to hate on the slann.

[dagreenmoonboyz]

In what way does uncomped warhammer necessitate a 500 point Slann? In what way does it necessitate a 350 point bunker? Obviously I don't play Lizardmen, but I am curious what you feel is so threatening as to require a minimum of 850 point investment in a Slann.

I would imagine (as I play uncomped warhammer) that if I wanted to be nasty I would field a Slann with as few upgrades as possible (to get more troops on the field) and if I felt like I needed a bunker (either because I didn't want to spend 50 points on Ethereal or because Ethereal doesn't work in my particular meta) I would take skink cohorts - again to squeeze more killy troops onto the field.

If your not putting the slann in a temple guard bunker where are you putting it? In a skink unit where it can be cannon balled in the face or amber speared? In a saurus unit u want in combat where the slann will be happily punched in the face as well as losing you 6 attacks in combat? Also now you can't take temple guard the only WS4 S5 troop option we have...

Pay 355 for him to sit in a temple guard unit plus another 365 for tmrichards best faster in the game and your have 720 points of your army. Certainly hope it's kind of good and it's certainly easy to overpower in combat.

[BooTMGSG]

To add something positive to the debate, I'd suggest that if the Slann simply came with Loremaster and could buy +1 to cast for 50 points and +1 to dispel for 50 points instead of Focused Rumination, Focus of Mystery and Becalming Cogitation and cupped hands simply allowed a re-roll on the miscast chart and therefore replace soul of stone, then I know I'd still be pretty happy. That way your decent slann would still cost a good chunk over 400 points and would not have the more "unusual" abilities that seems to be giving people cause to hate on the slann.

Again rerolling on the miscast chart is not worth it when you look at the options. Perhaps if it changed it to instead of miscasting, loss DX power dice as the slann disapates the extra energy. I wouldn't bother with the cupped hand if I could have that sort of failsafe.
Not sure +1 to cast and +1 to dispell is worth the points. The big bonnus with becalming cogitation is the way to prevent IF, let us Dispell IF and it might be worth the hit.
On rumination, perhaps add DX powerdice per round. It would get rid of the loremaster abuse, and there is already similar stuff about.

[decker_cky]

If your not putting the slann in a temple guard bunker where are you putting it? In a skink unit where it can be cannon balled in the face or amber speared? In a saurus unit u want in combat where the slann will be happily punched in the face as well as losing you 6 attacks in combat? Also now you can't take temple guard the only WS4 S5 troop option we have...

Pay 355 for him to sit in a temple guard unit plus another 365 for tmrichards best faster in the game and your have 720 points of your army. Certainly hope it's kind of good and it's certainly easy to overpower in combat.

If you sit the slann in the temple guard, it's because you want that combat unit AND you want the stubborn/ItP block. Taking temple guard without a slann is pretty much not an option. That's not a unit you take just to hide behind your lines - it's a unit you take which allows you to hide a slann without having to resort to a vulnerable bunker behind your lines.

Why would the slann get cannonballed in skinks anymore than he would in saurus or templeguard. He's infantry in infantry, so would get a 2+ look out sir, just with a cheaper model jumping in the way of a cannonball. Amber spear can't pick out a slann in any unit. If you take skinks, the point is to hide that unit behind a solid battleline of saurus. The points you save on a temple guard block buys you another large saurus block. Cheaper slann + cheap bunker allows for more models on the field fighting. A slann in skinks even means you have less models get hit by miscasts!

[Spiney Norman]

Go back 2 pages and read the very long post with detailed examples that I put up about how an uncomped Slann can come in at 365pts and be better than any other Lord level caster in the game.

Well except Teclis, or high elf book mage, wizards that can IF easily several times a turn with no risk of miscast are the most broken thing about the 8th ed magic phase. I'm somewhat sadistically hoping that Robin Cruddace gets the job of doing the hi elf book to see what malicious over-nerf he might have planned for the top elf caster.

If the Slann didn't get the free discipline he would be costed fine.

Regarding soul of stone, it's not that it isn't good, it's just not worth 50pts. Most players that use the earthing rod will probably say they think it's not worth 25pts, (I don't and I take it on my TK hierophant in every game), but the reality is that unless your the kind of player that 6 dices a spell every phase miscasts are relatively uncommon. One of the reasons why the cupped hands is such a stellar item despite being one use only is because even lord level wizards rarely miscast more than once a game if your sensible about the number of dice you roll per spell.

Add to this that in terms of rerolling miscasts results the only result your really going to want to reroll is a dimensional cascade because it's the only one where you could actually lose your wizard. The chance of a second miscast is relatively slim, and the odds of two dimensional cascades, while not impossible, are short enough to make it not worth the additional 25pts for SoS.

[tmarichards]

I think there are a couple of points you might not have considered.

First of all, the Slann is infantry so he gets a Look Out, Sir! from a unit of Skinks against cannons, and an Amber Spear is fired as a bolt thrower so wouldn't be able to pick him out. A unit of 20 skirmishers is a perfectly adequate bunker that can run behind your main battleline to avoid combat (as long as you play competently and deal with any flying threats), and can still pump out a decent amount of shots so if the Slann doesn't need to hide in them they can go running around and do their own thing.

Or, just run him around on his own. If your opponent doesn't have anything doing multiple wounds then with his good toughness, 5 wounds and 4++ he's fine against light shooting, especially as if you feel this be a problem you can take care of this first with the Terradons/Salamanders/Scar-Vets. If your opponent does have war machines, prioritise dealing with these with the Terradons/Chameleons.

You can make him immune to non-magical attacks (then if you play vs Dwarfs or Daemons you can dive him into a succession of skink units), or you can give him a 2++ vs ranged attacks.

Running him in a Skink bunker:

1. Makes him exactly as safe as if he was in Temple Guard vs anything with a template

2. Makes it easier for him to avoid combat

3. You care less if he miscasts.

4. Costs a small fraction of the points of the Temple Guard unit, which you can still put into Saurus/SKrox/Scar-Vets. who can do the combat if you need them to.

There are a huge variety of options beyond putting him in a Temple Guard unit where he will still be perfectly safe, and the Lizards book has a lot of choices that can help whichever build you go with.