Halberd +2 Initiative?

[Vipoid]

The warding stave and falchion descriptions make it sound as if the users psychic abilities trigger the effect. Simple fix then; psychic test to get the I bonus.

I actually quite like this idea - GKs can choose to use their psychic power to strike first, to get +1 Str or to save it to activate their force weapons.

[Souleater]

+1 Initiative would have been enough, giving them the ability to tie with FCing Marines. +2 unfortunately lets them equal fast yet fragile things like Wyches and Stealers. Given the power of GK shooting, they really didn't need the ability to be tough and super-fast in melee.

[lantzkev]

There is a point cost difference, but meh the rants and rales of the internet...

On terminators they are free, but on regular troops it's a pretty beefy increase in cost.

[khaosmarines]

Thanks for all the replies, just me and a friend disagreed on this. I didn't think it was fluffy for them to give +2 I (all the time) my friend did.
So i thought i would see what Warseer thought.
Sorry if it sounded like a rant, i don't feel any anger; honestly it doesn't really bother me. I mean i would prefer if it was more fluffy, but hey what am i going to do??
I was not just trying to nit pick the Grey Knights codex, just see if my opinion was in line with that of most of the community (or else i was going crazy.)

It seems like most people think it should be different, and I've seen a lot of +1 or +2 when charging being charged.

Again thanks for replies!

[lantzkev]

I was not just trying to nit pick the Grey Knights codex, just see if my opinion was in line with that of most of the community

yeah because internet wisdom and consensus is the best thing to judge real world actions and opinion by....

[khaosmarines]

yeah because internet wisdom and consensus is the best thing to judge real world actions and opinion by....

So your saying if i asked you in person you would give a different response?

Not sure how else i could get the opinions of 140 people without a huge amount of effort.

Judge real world actions? Dude i'm just asking i'm not going to start burning Codex's.

I think with some highly insignificant issues (such as the fluff relevance of a single rule in a tabletop wargame) it is perfectly fine to let the opinions of others influence me. But if someone makes extremely convincing arguments, they carry more weight.

Like many options i have chosen for army lists i have allowed the opinions of multi-tournament winning people with far more gaming experience them myself override my own thoughts. That would be like telling a doctor i wasn't sick...

[ehlijen]

So your saying if i asked you in person you would give a different response?

Not sure how else i could get the opinions of 140 people without a huge amount of effort.

No, what he's saying is this: Even though it feels as though you're asking a wide variety of people on the internet when making posts like this, you really are only getting responses from a very small group of people sharing the same interest, level of dedication and need to voice their opinion. Taking all those factors into account which lead to people responding to forum threads, and you have even odds that the group that does respond is no more diverse than your actual gaming group, if even that much.

The end effect of that is that answers you get here are not a meaningful representation of the gaming world as a whole. In your group, if 3 out of 10 answer, that's 30%. On here, if 140 out of 1400 answer, that's 10%.

What he said was: just cause the internet agrees, doesn't mean it's right, especially if only a tiny fraction answers.

[lantzkev]

Coming to a place like this is like going to one place to poll people. You might be lucky and get a good sample, more then likely though you'll get a group with very common views for good or ill that'll skew your results...

Also, everyone here tends to be zomg that's op and bs!

Also your question give little in the way of options and lack of bias...

Coming here to ask if something the grey knights have is too much/overpowered is like going to a MADD meeting and asking if it's okay to drive after just a drink.

-edit-

And to be techincal, the only correct option is "give halberd +2 initiative" because that's what's in the book. Arguing it shouldn't is arguing something you can't change.

[khaosmarines]

Ok, i think your exaggerating the narrow nature of the post.

No i cannot get the opinion of every person on this forum this is the best i can do. I think you are assuming that only a very specific type of person replies to certain posts, i don't believe this is the case.

I don't agree that my gaming group would provide as much variety, they are a small isolated group in an isolated meta. I think that this is the best place for me to get access to as many people as i can, no i cannot get a definitive answer or a full on analysis of the community.

In my earlier post when i said "most of the community" i didn't mean it literally sorry if i caused confusion.

Really my intention was just to see the opinions of others. Not all others, not the entire war gaming community.

[Vipoid]

No, what he's saying is this: Even though it feels as though you're asking a wide variety of people on the internet when making posts like this, you really are only getting responses from a very small group of people sharing the same interest, level of dedication and need to voice their opinion.

Whilst I understand what you mean, he's likely to get responses from a similar group of people even if he asked them in real life.

Here's the thing - if you're taking a survey then you have to make sure that the population you sample is a good representation of the overall population, unless you're only trying to sample a specific group.

For example, you wouldn't survey a university to find out how the population feels about a particular law. On the other hand, if you only want to know how students feel, than a university could be an excellent place for a survey.

If you're looking for opinions on an aspect of 40k, then warseer is a decent place to try. Yes, you're only looking at a portion of the population, but that's what you'd be doing anyway, since no-40k players will either have no idea what you're talking about, or simply won't care.

With regard to the 'need' to voice their opinions, I'm not sure this is as big a problem as you make it out to be. Perhaps a lot of people are relatively shy about voicing their opinions publicly. On the other hand, since the internet allows you to speak while remaining anonymous, they might be a lot more willing to voice their true opinions, rather than going with a crowd. Obviously this won't always be the case, but it's something that you should bear in mind.

Anyway, I really don't think warseer is a terrible place to conduct surveys of this kind. It is not perfect, but then few surveys are.

Although, I do think it would be interesting to ask the same question on some other 40k forums (DakkaDakka, Miniwargaming, BoLS etc.), and see if the yes/no proportions are similar to those obtained on Warseer.

And to be techincal, the only correct option is "give halberd +2 initiative" because that's what's in the book. Arguing it shouldn't is arguing something you can't change.

By what possible measure is that the only right answer?

Yes, regardless of what we say here, GW are not going to descend from Heaven with an faq to 'fix' the halberd, we know. That does not mean we're not allowed to debate whether or not the fluff for halberds is adequate to support their effect.

[lantzkev]

By what possible measure is that the only right answer?

Yes, regardless of what we say here, GW are not going to descend from Heaven with an faq to 'fix' the halberd, we know. That does not mean we're not allowed to debate whether or not the fluff for halberds is adequate to support their effect.

Because objectively it's the only possible correct one. =P

The biggest Bias of voluntary surveys like this is that the only ones you'll get to "vote" on it, are those that have a interest in it changing. Specially since you're depending on those interested or angry at the title to respond to it.

If I ask someone "you hate apple pie right?" guess what they are likely to answer even they like apple pie? They are likely to answer the way I suggested they should

[Vipoid]

Because objectively it's the only possible correct one. =P

I suggest you look up the word 'objectively', I'm sure it doesn't mean what you think it means.

The biggest Bias of voluntary surveys like this is that the only ones you'll get to "vote" on it, are those that have a interest in it changing. Specially since you're depending on those interested or angry at the title to respond to it.

Yet you propose having no debate at all, which is far worse bias, because you're saying that it doesn't even deserve a debate.

If I ask someone "you hate apple pie right?" guess what they are likely to answer even they like apple pie? They are likely to answer the way I suggested they should

If you asked me that, I would answer "No, I like apple pie, you must be thinking of someone else."

Unless you're asking people who are utterly terrified of expressing their own opinions, then they'll still oppose you even if you phrase the question to favour a particular answer.

With regard to this debate, I don't see that.

I see that the person starting the debate has an opinion, but I also see that he's trying to explain the point of the survey. Those who feel that his argument is flawed are free to vote 'no' and explain to him what he's missed or where he's going wrong (which, I would imagine, is the main purpose of the survey/debate).

If the only possible answers were something like "No, of course not!" or "I suppose it's ok", then I'd be more inclined to agree with you. But, as it stands, I just don't see the level of bias you're talking about.

[warplock]

Bit weird that this poll has a 'backlash' which is opposing even the idea of having a poll on Warseer. Guess what, it's a poll, it's not perfect but what else do you suggest. I've never seen a backlash against any other poll!

[lantzkev]

The backlash is to having a poll yes, you want better answers, you supply a open ended question that everyone can then answer how they feel. If he truly wanted more than just an affirmation of what his opinion is, this is not how he'd do it.

Biased poll is biased.

[Vipoid]

The backlash is to having a poll yes, you want better answers, you supply a open ended question that everyone can then answer how they feel. If he truly wanted more than just an affirmation of what his opinion is, this is not how he'd do it.

Biased poll is biased.

There's a difference between having an opinion yourself and biasing a survey to favour your opinion.

As I said before, neither the question, nor the answers favour one answer over the other.

The poster also included his argument for why halberds shouldn't give +2 initiative. Now, if this was just a survey (i.e., people could only vote yes/no, without posting their argument), then I'd agree that it was a biased survey. In that case, I'd expect the poster to show both arguments or neither.

However, this is not just a survey, but also a debate - where people present arguments to elaborate on and explain their choices. In this case, he is perfectly within his rights to post his argument for why halberds shouldn't give +2 initiative, because it sets the stage for the debate.

You say that a good argument can sway people towards a partcular answer, well guess what? That's the whole point of a debate.

If you don't like his argument, here's a suggestion: rather than ranting about the survey being biased, why not explain why the argument he uses is flawed? Point out the fallicies, and present your own arguments for why he's wrong and halberds should give +2 initiative. Or, to put another way - join the debate.

[Baaltor]

I actually quite like this idea - GKs can choose to use their psychic power to strike first, to get +1 Str or to save it to activate their force weapons.

And you have my AXE! Seriously, if you had to choose between I and S I'd be way more happy with that, I'd prefer only 1 I though, 2 is kinda beefy and is reserved from blasphemously fast things, not guys with a pointed stick from the pointed stick room that doesn't exist.

There is a point cost difference, but meh the rants and rales of the internet...

On terminators they are free, but on regular troops it's a pretty beefy increase in cost.

Yeah, maybe they're costed correctly, I don't care about that though, it's just as bad to me as if guardsmen could take warp spider jump packs, I wouldn't care if they were perfectly costed or over costed, it's just silly and stepping on someone's tows with no good raisin!

[Bunnahabhain]

Seriously, if you had to choose between I and S I'd be way more happy with that, I'd prefer only 1 I though, 2 is kinda beefy and is reserved from blasphemously fast things, not guys with a pointed stick from the pointed stick room that doesn't exist.!

You mean like the rough rider tack room? A krak grenade on a pointy stick manages +2 S and I nicely...

[daboarder]

You mean like the rough rider tack room? A krak grenade on a pointy stick manages +2 S and I nicely...

....its a BOMB on a pointy stick, that was already traveling pretty fast. In fact its far more likely that the I bonus from hunting lances covers a flat out cavalry charge....and consider that cavalry in this game charge anywhere between 19' and 24' a turn, thats damned fast.

[Vipoid]

You mean like the rough rider tack room? A krak grenade on a pointy stick manages +2 S and I nicely...

If halberds were +2 strength,+2 initiative, but only on a turn when they charge, and only once per game (and have to be used the first time they charge), then I'd have absolutely no problem with them.

[RugbySkin]

Hmmm... Gee... Maybe it's there to make up for the fact that GK Termies kinda suck compared to other armies' termies?

A LOT less options and we gotta take 'em at troops (Cause everyone runs their "strike squads" as purifiers anyway.) Unless you take Coteaz and Inquisitor Spam.

The Halbs are the only thing keeping our stormshield-less termies around. The Swords and Staves are there to soak up wounds so our Halberd Terms/Pallies make it into combat. And no matter what consensus says, the halbs in no way stop the 2 toughest armies for GKs to take on from killing them fast. Eldar and DEldar. For Eldar, it's Banshees (Aww, +2I? That's cute) and stinkin Eldrad (I'm GLAD Slaanesh is eating his bitch-making me roll 3d6-ass!). For DE it's Lances and Lilieth.