Halberd +2 Initiative?

[Lord Squidar]

I am not going to answer the weapons debate about halberds but the game mechanics, specifically balance.

One of the previous users said its to give GK a bonus against the faster squishy units that can kill them first in combat. The army already has tons of super high strength shooting, meaning that those weaker faster units are doomed before they get there anyways. Its really hard to actually get into a combat safely with the grey knights in the first place! Why do they need to make an army that out does all others in each phase of the game? It should be that if you are charged in CC then you are doing something wrong tactically and deserve to get butchered.

[Vipoid]

Hmmm... Gee... Maybe it's there to make up for the fact that GK Termies kinda suck compared to other armies' termies?

A LOT less options and we gotta take 'em at troops (Cause everyone runs their "strike squads" as purifiers anyway.) Unless you take Coteaz and Inquisitor Spam.

The Halbs are the only thing keeping our stormshield-less termies around. The Swords and Staves are there to soak up wounds so our Halberd Terms/Pallies make it into combat. And no matter what consensus says, the halbs in no way stop the 2 toughest armies for GKs to take on from killing them fast. Eldar and DEldar. For Eldar, it's Banshees (Aww, +2I? That's cute) and stinkin Eldrad (I'm GLAD Slaanesh is eating his bitch-making me roll 3d6-ass!). For DE it's Lances and Lilieth.

Firstly, you appear to have ignored the actual question, which was is +2 initiative justifiable from a purely fluffwise perspective?

Second, in response to your argument, why should GKs get something to let them go first/simultaneously with eldar and DE? They have high initiative because they have poor toughness and armour saves, and need to hit first to avoid retaliation. Your terminators have S/T4, and a 2+/5+ save - they're *meant* to take hits, and shouldn't need to strike at I6 to avoid them.

Furthermore, with the aformentioned eldar/DE units, they'll generally be striking at I5/6, but with S3 weapons. Maybe the exarch/DE-sargeant will have a weapon, but that's usually it. On the other hand, every single one of your terminators is striking first with not only a power weapon, but a force weapon. So, not only do all your I6 atacks ignore armour saves, you can also insta-kill virtually every MC in the game, before it ever gets to swing. Your terminators shouldn't have that ability - it goes completely against the idea of slow, but highly durable warriors.

[lantzkev]

Firstly, you appear to have ignored the actual question, which was is +2 initiative justifiable from a purely fluffwise perspective?

Second, in response to your argument, why should GKs get something to let them go first/simultaneously with eldar and DE? They have high initiative because they have poor toughness and armour saves, and need to hit first to avoid retaliation. Your terminators have S/T4, and a 2+/5+ save - they're *meant* to take hits, and shouldn't need to strike at I6 to avoid them.

Furthermore, with the aformentioned eldar/DE units, they'll generally be striking at I5/6, but with S3 weapons. Maybe the exarch/DE-sargeant will have a weapon, but that's usually it. On the other hand, every single one of your terminators is striking first with not only a power weapon, but a force weapon. So, not only do all your I6 atacks ignore armour saves, you can also insta-kill virtually every MC in the game, before it ever gets to swing. Your terminators shouldn't have that ability - it goes completely against the idea of slow, but highly durable warriors.

Someone is mistaking what they think terminators are and what they are.

Movement wise they aren't the fastest, but they are still fast. Grey knights in particular are fast responders, perfect timing, their terminators strike quickly and then get out to the next engagement.

[Shamana]

Movement wise they aren't the fastest, but they are still fast. Grey knights in particular are fast responders, perfect timing, their terminators strike quickly and then get out to the next engagement.

They are fast only in the sense that they can teleport into battle (and maybe out of it, I'm not sure); and anyway speed of deployment has nothing to do with the halberds. Terminators have never been described to be particularly agile in combat, in fact the whole bit about terminators being unable to pursue fleeing foes would indicate that they are less quick than power armoured marines.

And as for agility, I5 represents the pinnacle of what a space marine champion can normally do (as that is the initiative of a SM Captain or Chaos Lord); I6 is normally used by only the most elite eldar warriors or genetically engineered war machines like the genestealers. A terminator with a force weapon should not be at that level. A +1 to initiative or counter-attack could work, but +2 is a significant jump and imo not justified.

[RugbySkin]

They're called Banshees. I10 with power wpns. You don't throw Scorpions or Guardians against Termies. Eldar are all about using the right thing against the right enemy. So thank you for assuming I don't know that, but I'm not a complete ***** (Despite my track record with my armies). And any DE shouldn't be hitting you with strength anything weapons. They have poison and they should be using them. If they're stupid enough to be in CC with them and not lancing them to death from across the battlefield.

As for fluff, they strike first because you're keeping the enemies at arms length. Thus they're trained to use them to keep enemies at arms length. Thus the persistent +2. I don't know any pole arm that allows you to hit first and then allow the enemy to get into hugging range. However, allowing the bearer of the pole arm to whack you and not allow you your attacks would most likely be broken, so they decided to be fair.

[Vipoid]

They're called Banshees. I10 with power wpns. You don't throw Scorpions or Guardians against Termies. Eldar are all about using the right thing against the right enemy. So thank you for assuming I don't know that, but I'm not a complete ***** (Despite my track record with my armies). And any DE shouldn't be hitting you with strength anything weapons. They have poison and they should be using them. If they're stupid enough to be in CC with them and not lancing them to death from across the battlefield.

Banshees? Really?

They strike first, but only on the first turn, and even then, only with S3.

All fear their T3 with 4+ saves. Say, if only your terminators had some kind of high-strength, Assault 4, AP4 weapon, available to virtually al your units, that could mow down the banshees before they reached you. Oh, wait...

As for fluff, they strike first because you're keeping the enemies at arms length. Thus they're trained to use them to keep enemies at arms length.

Except that, as I and others have pointed out, halberds are not that long. Tyranids have many weapons that are considerably longer, but gain no bonuses from using them. In fact, the Necron Warscythe is almost exactly the same size and shape as a GK halberd, but gives no initiative bonus.

You see, this sort of concept only works if it is applied to every army, and takes into account each weapon's *absolute* size, rather than its relative size.

Thus the persistent +2.

I don't get the persistent +2 initiative. Aside from the aformentioned problem, what happens when enemies do close? Saying "well they can keep them at arm's length forever becuase... um... they're GKs is a pathetic argument. At most, it should be +2 initiative for the first turn of combat, but even then, only if every other large weapon (in every codex) also gives an appropriate initiative boost for the first turn of combat.

However, allowing the bearer of the pole arm to whack you and not allow you your attacks would most likely be broken, so they decided to be fair.

Wow.

If we actually survive the silliness of I6 force weapons, Matt Ward generously allows us to attack his GKs back.

How very kind of him.

[RugbySkin]

Yes Banshees. 3 Power wpn attacks per (1 base, 1 charge 1 pistol). Play the law of averages. And given the subject of the charge should have doom on them, they're the answer, other than fire dragons who should be shooting at Paladins. (If all the hatred toward eldar make me sound bitter, it's because I am)

And yeah. Halbards aren't the longest polearm out there. But they're longer than a frakkin sword.

And yes. Mat Ward is so very kind. He turned an army barely anyone used (I'm goin with it was because it was all metal) into one that sells extremely well and plays competitively. And yeah, maybe they buffed up a tad overmuch. As I'm so fond of saying, the Zakdorn have a word for mismatch. Challenge. Sack up and maybe learn to engage this army differently than other armies you've gotten used to.

[Bunnahabhain]

Yes Banshees. 3 Power wpn attacks per (1 base, 1 charge 1 pistol). Play the law of averages. And given the subject of the charge should have doom on them, they're the answer, other than fire dragons who should be shooting at Paladins. (If all the hatred toward eldar make me sound bitter, it's because I am)

Follow you own advice, and play the numbers.
Let us take a decent size of banshees (10), engaging at full strength- can't be bothered to factor in exarch, as don't have their stats and rules in head...

30 attacks 4+ to hit
15 hits
5+ to wound. I'll be generous, and assume doom works fine, against an army with great anti psyker measures......
5 wounds without doom, or 8 with.
Hitting an average 5++ save, so
~3 wounds without doom, or ~5 with.

Unless you're spamming min sized units, the return attacks probably ~ tie the combat.
Impressive what. That's a full squad of specialists hitting their ideal target with everything in their favour.

If you choose to assume the GKs don't have a ++save, I'll assume they're purifiers who have killed~ 4 banshes with mystic fire on the way in, and then the numbers look even worse for the banshees.

[Vipoid]

Yes Banshees. 3 Power wpn attacks per (1 base, 1 charge 1 pistol). Play the law of averages. And given the subject of the charge should have doom on them, they're the answer, other than fire dragons who should be shooting at Paladins. (If all the hatred toward eldar make me sound bitter, it's because I am)

So, the eldar player is using fire dragons, howling banshees (which you apparently can't shoot), and a dooming-farseer, just to kill your terminators. Um... remind me why they're underpowered without halberds again?

And yeah. Halbards aren't the longest polearm out there. But they're longer than a frakkin sword.

No, no they're not.

compare their length to that of a Hive Tyrant or Daemon Prince's sword. Or even a Tyranid Warrior's sword. You'll find they're not as long as you seem to think.

Still, I'm happy for GKs to get a permanent +2 initiative from wielding them. Provided of course that my tyranid warriors also recieve +2 initiative from using boneswords (since they're just as long), and my MCs (along with the Chaos DP etc.) recieve +3 initiative from boneswords/scything talons, since they're even longer than Gk halberds.

Sounds fair to me.

And yeah, maybe they buffed up a tad overmuch. As I'm so fond of saying, the Zakdorn have a word for mismatch. Challenge. Sack up and maybe learn to engage this army differently than other armies you've gotten used to.

So... just to clarify, you're telling others to try using different tactics against your army, whilst at the same time moaning about how halberds are your only chance against eldar/DE, because they're so OP, compared to your army.

Does that not sound a little hypocritical?

[RugbySkin]

Yes. They're going with Banshees and Firedragons. (It's almost like power weapons and melta guns are important these days) ANd it works just as well against pallies Well, not the banshees. The 2 wounds a pop screw them there, but that's what melta is for... but they're good at cleaning up a squad that's been slammed with the melta.

As for the sword vs halbard, let's look at the Hive Tyrant and Daemon Prince. 2 extreme psychos who're all about "MAIM KILL DEVOUR THEIR FLESH/SOUL!" with a big sword. Doesn't sound like something that'd be using skill and overall technique vs an elite (and yes Mat, we get it, the GK are elite. If you'd assume we got that, that codex coulda been 20 pages shorter) guy who's literally one in a million, who train constantly cause there's nothing else to do when you're an OCD psychic murder machine whose naughty bits fell off a few decades back. As for the length, I was referring to the GK's sword option not their enemies'.

And at no point did I moan that Halbards are their only option. If ya have to debate by misquoting/just playing lying about the other person's argument, kinda sad. And Eldar/DE are not OP to my army, they're just better able to counter some of the benefits for being a GK compared to someone like a Tau player. Persaonally I don't use halberds on my termies/pallies. I go with swords/hammers/one stave in a pally group for better CC invul saves and the ability to actually do something against a tank without having to put a Librarian in the squad for Might of Titan. Upon thinking about it, the best hard counter for halberd wielding maniacs is a plain ol' Dreadnaught. Always using the front armor of 12, unless they got a lib in the squad, they can't do anything to them. And coming soon, a Triarch Stalker. Even with a lib in there, they cannot pen it w/o a hammer.

[Bunnahabhain]

So the answer to halberds is
1) Bring a dredanuaght. And if you're one of the armies without Close assulat walker with an AV value... ( Nids, Tau, Eldar, DE, and Guard get a half a point for the chicken walker...)
and
2) Hope the GK player is an idiot, and doesn't equip their squads with a hammer, or other way of cracking armour.

The normal answer, which most players use ( SHOOT THEM!) doesn't occur to you?

[wyvirn]

MMMmmm that's some good straw man. I'm glad that the fact that both the Daemon Prince and the Hive Tyrant have more skill with a weapon than Grey Knights. A WS of 7+ means that they just don't know how to handle a weapon against the fabled GKs, who only have some of their genitalia

[Vipoid]

As for the sword vs halbard, let's look at the Hive Tyrant and Daemon Prince. 2 extreme psychos who're all about "MAIM KILL DEVOUR THEIR FLESH/SOUL!" with a big sword. Doesn't sound like something that'd be using skill and overall technique vs an elite (and yes Mat, we get it, the GK are elite.

Um... where exactly does it say that in any of the fluff? The Hive Tyrant is no less controlled than any GK commander, and I imagine most Daemon-princes are equally controlled. You seem to assume that because they're monstrous creatures, they can only stomp around like Godzilla, with no thought or purpose, and that they only attack by flailing wildly with their weapons. This just isn't the case.

If you want additional support for this, how about the fact that both the Hive Tyrant and Daemon Prince fight with considerablty more skill than GKs (WS8, WS7 respectively, vs WS4 for GK terminators), so if anything, they should be even better at using the reach of their weapons to their advantage.

You accuse me below of lying about your argument, yet you seem perfectly happy to make up fluff to suit yourself.

And at no point did I moan that Halbards are their only option. If ya have to debate by misquoting/just playing lying about the other person's argument, kinda sad.

The Halbs are the only thing keeping our stormshield-less termies around.

Pardon?

[RugbySkin]

Cause melta is close combat. Geez Warseer community. it's called "Reading Comprehension". GET SOME!

I was providing a simple answer for simple minds, Tau, Eldar, DE and guard have easy ways to handle them. Nids, I'm not sure about. I don't know enough about thier codex, but the folks around here who play them always seem to have trouble with any heavy armor. That being said, Nids CAN do well against GK but the list, it seems to me, has to be built specifically for that kinda army, and it would not do well against a lot of other armies.

As for point number 2, GK do have a hard time of popping heavy armor. Which is why you see people bring 3 Psyfle Dreads. And all our land raiders always seem to spend the 10 points for melta. The Psycanon can pen armor 12 on a 6. Good luck relying on that. SO most of our armor popping is ranged. A LOT of GK players relay on ranged to do that and focus they're CC on faster/more attacks. Cause we're gonna be outnumbered. That's just reality. And with the force weapons, that means we don't have to be as scared of the big monstrous str gazillion beasty coming at us.

As for the shooting, no s***.

[RugbySkin]

The Quote there was keeping our stormshieldless termies around in our army list/on the field. Not Alive. That's what wound allocation is for.

[Vipoid]

Cause melta is close combat. Geez Warseer community. it's called "Reading Comprehension". GET SOME!

Eh?

[Bunnahabhain]

Eh?

I think he is an American, and attempting sarcasm and/or irony. Don't try and understand it, as they certainly don't...




N.B. No offence meant to those colonial types who are not related to the Bush family, and can therefore manage rhetoric correctly...

[Clarkson]

Cause melta is close combat. Geez Warseer community. it's called "Reading Comprehension". GET SOME!



I think what he means is... melta is 12" so easily within combat range for all armies.. besides S&P/difficult terrain.

what he isn't getting is... to get into 12" of GK's with an optimal squad to kill the standard arrangement of termies anyone sees (1 DH, 2 PC, 7HB), is way over the 500pt range.. so yes Dragons and Banshees with a farseer that doomed are effective, but there are waaaay more expensive and takes a chunk of the army total to fight 1 10man termie.. or even 5man termies.


I was providing a simple answer for simple minds, Tau, Eldar, DE and guard have easy ways to handle them. Nids, I'm not sure about. I don't know enough about thier codex, but the folks around here who play them always seem to have trouble with any heavy armor. That being said, Nids CAN do well against GK but the list, it seems to me, has to be built specifically for that kinda army, and it would not do well against a lot of other armies.

so ya saying we have to tailor lists to play? taking the fun out of playing 40k because your army has units that are OP (and i dont have a deep seated hatred of GK's, i just find it dull that you can field an army that is I6 with pw's that cause instant death on a ld10 2d6 roll if a SINGLE wound was made..

As for point number 2, GK do have a hard time of popping heavy armor. Which is why you see people bring 3 Psyfle Dreads.

Lucky you... i wish i had an army that can field a dread that can sit at the back of the board shooting 4 TL-S8 shots per dread for dirt cheap, so they struggle against av14.. the only army that will field enough to cause worry is IG and if you are facing them.. you have plenty of other thiongs that can deal with the problem

And all our land raiders always seem to spend the 10 points for melta.

Least you have the option... and the option of 3 different flavours of LR.. 4 if you count the Achilles (which most places outside tournaments do)

The Psycanon can pen armor 12 on a 6. Good luck relying on that. SO most of our armor popping is ranged. A LOT of GK players relay on ranged to do that and focus they're CC on faster/more attacks. Cause we're gonna be outnumbered. That's just reality. And with the force weapons, that means we don't have to be as scared of the big monstrous str gazillion beasty coming at us.

so You are allowed to not worry about MC's and other meanies, but others arent?

I know this original argument is about +2I perm... but when your army has sooooo much more going for it... and that isnt even including Inquisitorial crap too, so quit bicthin', allow for you to be +2I first round of combat... because furious charge only works on the first turn.. if you want to really be annoyed... stop collecting GK and play them with other armies.

and as an afterthought, you complain that you dont have benefits... your standard marines are 100pts.. and you are getting aegis (-1LD for psychic attacks within 12" i believe?), 5man force swords with access to same equipment as the termies.. and for 200pts.. upgrades to the +2I on standard termies for free... and you think its wrong that others have a problem with GK?

[lordbeefy]

I voted yes.

A few reasons....firstly I dont see why the additional long range of such a weapon wouldnt affect the initiative to the better. Secondly, if such a special weapon as a nemesis weapon was increased in size from a sword to a halberd, why wouldnt there be an increased benefit, and thirdly because I want to start a GK army so I will benefit from them, LOL.

I do however agree that some of the arguements that such benefits should extend to other similar weapons, tyranid talons, eldar spears etc. Certainly we can see such a benefit being extended to IG rough riders. I do however understand why the rough riders lose it after the first round...after all their weapon basically is blown up anyway.

I have studied martial arts for many many years, and while I may suck, there are a number of guys I know who are extremely skilled in the use of bo-staffs and similar long reach weapons.....they use the reach of these to dictate the pace of any fight and this could be reasoning and justification to such a benefit in the world of 40K.

Ultimately though, as I say, my main reason for saying yes is cos i want to buy some!


hehehehehehehehe!

[Shamana]

A few reasons....firstly I dont see why the additional long range of such a weapon wouldnt affect the initiative to the better. Secondly, if such a special weapon as a nemesis weapon was increased in size from a sword to a halberd, why wouldnt there be an increased benefit, and thirdly because I want to start a GK army so I will benefit from them, LOL.

I'm ok with there being some benefit, it's that it is a bit too much. Yes, you have 1 1/2 feet longer weapon. That may count for something, but +2 initiative is the difference between an unaugmented human and a noise marine - someone that's unearthly f.....g fast by the standard of space marines. I6 is the speed of genestealers, incubi klaivexi, exarchs/autarchs, Slaaneshi CLs, and other such stuff. Sorry, but having a 50 cm longer beatstick need not equalize that much of a speed advantage.

If it were counter-attack or +1 initiative, I could see it (the former should naturally cost less than the current cost), but when you make genestealers cry when they assault your space marines out of cover, I think you are overdoing it.