Dropzone Commander - Hawkwargames

[Damien 1427]

It's a bit on the pricey side (Especially that infantry), but I was always more interested in using stuff for 15mm than in the game itself. Those Scourge Worms, light mechs and tiny fliers would make an interesting alien force for Gruntz or FUBAR.

[GomezAddams]

I think whats going to happen is that people are going to invest in a starter set, get it, and realise just how little they've gotten for there money.

I still remember the missus reaction when I bought my Baccus samurai army and laid it out. She was impressed at the size of the army and how it all looked, and it covered the majority of an A3 cutting mat. I'm sure if I came home with some of these she wouldn't be as impressed...

[Crovax20]

The starter army for the Shaltari has 15 models (Counting the infantry bases as 1 model per base) plus a commander deck for 4.53 pounds per model basically. The large starter has 33 models for 140 pounds which comes down to 4.24 pounds per model, which is a saving over the basic starter plus you get bigger models as well. According to their rules FAQ a "normal" game will be around the size of the large/extra large army deals they have. So the biggest set for Shaltari includes 50 models for 220 pounds which comes down to 4.4 pounds, more expensive per model than the large set but you do get a whole bunch of bigger models in it.

I think overall the game is a bit pricey, but it does seem to hit a "coolness" factor that might make people willing to shell out the amount of cash. Lets face it the models are pretty sweet, and GW has people paying almost 70 quid just to make a somewhat effective 30 man goldsword/blackorc/tombguard/graveguard unit, which only makes up a quarter to one fifth of an army in points!

[Charax]

I look forward to disappointed pre-orderers selling their forces cheap in a couple of months

[AlexHolker]

Lets face the models are pretty sweet, and GW has people paying almost 70 quid just to make a somewhat effective 30 man goldsword/blackorc/tombguard/graveguard unit, which only makes up a quarter to one fifth of an army in points!

That doesn't mean much unless you're in the money to burn market.

Even at 20% off, an Enyo is still £4.40. At these prices I'll still buy a pair of Enyos and maybe a pair of Taranis, but not the Janus or Athenas.

[redben]

It's not cheap but nor at the same time do I think it's poor value for money. Some of those models are pretty hefty.

[Crovax20]

i'm sort of hoping Beasts Of War will do a special on the game before/around launch, so you can get a good look at how things look on the table and play.

[TimLeeson]

Ouch, bit too much out of my price range it seems sadly. I was hoping they'd be equal to the dystopian wars/spartan game starter-sets, but are over twice as much. Hopefully there will be sites like gifts for geeks/total wargamer that will stock it with a discount...

[Kahadras]

I've had my eye on things for a while now. The price of the starter sets is a bit disappointing IMHO but I can't help but think that the developers are looking to try and make a quick profit. Looking at the positives; the rulebook is reasonably priced and I'd be happy to chip in with a couple of mates to get hold of the rules and have a good read through before we go any futher. The models all look pretty nice bar a few of the Scourge tanks. I'm attracted to the rough and utilitarian look of the UMC and the walkers of the PHR.

I'm quite hopeful regarding the rules as it will make or break my interest in the game. Nice looking models are all well and good but they need a decent system to back them up. My one big gripe is that the different races all seem to pack the same standard equipment and there doesn't seem enough units that set the races apart from each other. This might prove to be incorrect once I get the chance to have a close look at the rules.

Overall the game looks quite encouraging. The models are nice and the rules (as have been described) seem interesting with the background seems pretty standard sci-fi fare from what I've seen so far. I'll probably invest but only after seeing the rules and listening to what other people think who have bought the models/played the game. If everything seems fine then I don't mind paying for the models. My key hope is that the systems expands with more races and a wider range of vehicles, infantry and dropships for the diferent factions.

Kahadras

[Enfid]

I was very excited about this, and even if, for me, the price is not prohibitive, it's definitely expensive compared to the likes of Spartan Games. I saw (according to the comments) about one out of three people who lost interest due to the price, and that worries me. If the rule is realy good, it might help, but in a small wargame community like in Australia, losing a few players is quite a blow.

I hope they use this window after gauging interest in the preorder to reduce the price and provide refunds or such (as unlikely as it is). I hope this point about price will be brought up during the live interviews as well.

EDIT: Or give extra stuff for people who have already preorder, as an alternative to refund.

I also don't understand a lot of complaints about free rule pdfs on the website. I know of very few games that provide rules for free, with Infinity and Mantic stuff that provide them (off the top of my head) and Privateer Press, Malifaux, GW, Spartan Games, Flames of War that don't AFAIK.

[shelfunit.]

I'd say the large vehicles (and to some extent the medium vehicles are at the top range of "acceptable" prices. The infantry cross the line into very expensive for what you get. GW Epic infantry is (overall) relatively far cheaper (still the best deal on their website). I may picck up some of the larger ships/walkers as they seem very nice for the price, but I'm really waiting for the scenery - if it is anything like what I've heard then it could be really excellent - again though it will depend on price, at this scale you might need a fair number of buildings in an average battle.

[redben]

I'd be willing to bet that an Uncharted Seas starter which included similarly sized vessels as these plus the deck of cards would be the same price. The Ralgard fleet is £42.50 (£46 with the cards) and contains nowhere near as much volume. To accuse Hawk of profiteering is absurd, they're priced at what they should be.

[Enfid]

Here's a starter box of Ralgard that I have, with a quarter (that I have lying around for some reason):
The starter Ralgard fleet, at 46 pound (card included in cost) There are 26 cards.

And here's its smallest ship, next to a quarter:

Here's the size of the smaller tank, the "Rapier" AA tank:

And here's the size of the "Bear" APC, next to a quarter:

The medium dropship, "Condor":

And here's the army deal of the UCM, at 68 pounds It has 40 cards included


Statistics: (I hope my math is right ><)

Cost (in pounds)
Ralgard starter fleet: 46
UCM starter army: 68 (~47.8% more)

Models # (approximate)
Ralgard starter fleet: 10
UCM starter army: 17 (infantry count bases) (70% more)

Cards
Ralgard starter fleet: 26
UCM starter army: 40 (53.8% more)

It's difficult to compare volume, without having the sets next to each other.

There's also points value in game to take into account, and with me having little actual game experience with Uncharted Seas, I can't do a comparison to a game...that no one knows how it plays...

Also keep in mind that I intentionally chose the DzC starter with the highest number of models (the PHR, for example, has 13 models), and the Ralgard models I just have lying around. I can take some pictures of the Iron Dwarves starter fleet, at 25 + 3.50 pounds for comparison if anyone wants. The dwarves seem to be a lot cheaper due to less resin + no metal parts.

Plus, DzC models are multi part resin, with only the infantry being white metal. Ralgard models that I have are one piece resin, with the 1 to 2 sails being white metal.

EDIT: I managed to look around and found that I have 68 pounds worth of models of the Ralgard:

Starter = 46
Balloonship x 2 = 14
Heavy Cruiser = 8
Total = 68 pounds

Bringing up to a total number of models of 13. Comparing this to the PHR set which also has 13 models at the same price:


EDIT 2: From my understanding, 800 points is the 'standard' points cost for Uncharted Seas, and the Ralgard starter + stuff shown above at 68 pounds total add up to 655 points, or 81.9% of standard game size.
As for DzC, I'm going based off of what is implied in the FAQ on the website, but it seems that the standard game size is about the large army deal (if not a little more), at 140 pounds. The 68 pounds starter then makes up 48.6% of a possible standard size game.

[Damien 1427]

and Priveteer Press, Malifaux, GW, Spartan Games, Flames of War that don't AFAIK.

Privateer Press provide quick-start rules (With unit rules coming with the models) and the core rules of Malifaux are free (Although it lacks a lot of the content of the paid version, but still teaches you the game). Whilst I don't hear huge complaints about, say, Flames of War or Spartan Games (Because the cost of entry isn't prohibitive. £25 and five tanks is not obscene, and £16 isn't that far out), the big complaint about GW in this respect is that the core rules just to play is in the ballpark of £45 and each individual army list is between £20 and £27.50.

Whilst I don't think it's a major issue (£15 isn't that much) a quick-start version just to give people an idea of how the game works would be preferable and would go some way to making the game an easier sell.

[Charax]

We're in the preorder phase at the moment, very few companies release quickstart rules before a game has even been released.

We may well get some afterwards. There's a live chat with Dave on facebook this time tomorrow, I'm sure he'll be asked about it

Anyway, most games end up with free PDF rules after a while, whether the owner intended them to or not..

[Pokpoko]

I know of very few games that provide rules for free, with Infinity and Mantic stuff that provide them (off the top of my head) and Privateer Press, Malifaux, GW, Spartan Games, Flames of War that don't AFAIK.

Just because it's not widespread it doesn't mean it should be accepted. Frankly, unless the game is really looking like total MUST-HAVE, I will not buy into anything I can't read through or play before. And you know what happens when you don't provide free rules? Let me tell you...you don't get sales anyway because two days later, the book is scanned and on the internets. You can rage, you can try to track the f**r down, but the damage is done. It's not like there's massive profit on books anyway, from what I've read it's usually the company hoping they break even on the book. RULES HELP YOU SELL MODELS, IF I CAN GET THE RULES FOR FREE I WILL BUY MORE MODELS, WHICH WILL GET YOU MORE PROFIT.

And just so we're clear, I do not condone piracy, I am just stating that it's inevitable, so you might as well accept that and provide the rules on your terms.

[redben]

Funny how many companies sell models without giving away free rules from the outset. I had to buy the rulebooks for Malifaux and Uncharted Seas when each game was launched. Free rules didn't come for those until each game was established. Hawk may well release quickstart rules for download, we're still talking about a game that hasn't been released yet.

[Enfid]

I agree with providing some semblence of basic rules for free, because knowing the rules definitely help me decide if I want to play the game or not. I'm just wondering about the severity of the complaint because some people's response to no free rules pdf is almost akin to a response to a GW price hike.

I'm still not sure about the price, even after I spend about an hour today doing the comparison above.

[redben]

As I've mentioned, I think the price is expensive but appropriate to the product. This is a game with some hefty vehicles and £20 is a fair price for a large dropship (compare the price with an Infinity TAG or Malifaux Avatar). It does mean I won't be picking the game up at launch because I can't afford it (and certainly can't afford two to demo the game at a games club). It is on the wishlist though.

[Pokpoko]

and £20 is a fair price for a large dropship

Unfortunately, it has the spartan spaceships to compare..and for 18Ł I get a terran dreadnought which is 60mm longer, and much, much heftier because it's solid lump of resin.