Tyranid Norn-Queens and the hive mind

[Bannik]

As a none nid player I wanted to ask something to those who know more, reading the wiki it says that the norm-queen basically argue with each other to what the best move is for the hive fleet, the question is are the queens the ones who make the hive mind, or is it their mind that creates the vast awesomesauce of the nids or does the hive mind exist without them, also would this suggest that the queens who can bicker between each other can also separate and create their own hive minds i.e splinter fleets who can fight other tyranids or who take a different choice from normal hive mind...or simply do not wish to be with their "sisters".

I ask because I had a slight idea for a nid force but draped in armor and royal garb like a splinter nid fleet that actually made a kingdom, if the norn-queens have different opinions and simply bicker between each other that surely they have some personality, if thats the case maybe some almost dead norn-queen falls to a planet and starts a separate mind network seperate from the hive mind maybe use human as servants etc (its a silly idea but it got me thinking , its after watching aliens vs predator, when the queen was tied up etc I got to thinking, what if she was worshiped and left the humans as servants)

[LordLucan]

The Norn Queens argue? I have never read that before, would you be able to provide a link to this wiki?

As for Tyranids draped in armour, with an individual Norn Queen, I don't see it really. You would be better looking at Hive Fleet Collossus. That is the only known hive fleet that ever communicated with the Imperium; they claimed to be fleeing from the rest of the Tyranids and travelled in living stone-skinned ships. They were sor tof a reimagined version of the zoats. However, during the Zorastra Attilla wars, the Imperium exterminated this fleet. They were telepathic and are the closest thing to what you seem to be after.

Otherwise, there are the genestealer cults. These cults have a lot of personality really, as they can come from any world genestealers infest. They can be cyberpunkish cultists from some hive world, or infest a feudal world and be an army of knights and peasants backed up by purestrains and mutant hybrids. The first genestealer of an infestation swells up with psychic power, until it is a bloated giant called a Patriarch. They are essentially worshipped by their enslaved human mind puppets.

[azhagmorglum]

I'd say that bickering hive queens would go against the general consensus and fluff of the tyranids, and against the definition of the hive mind.

[LordLucan]

Indeed azhagmorglum, I'd agree there.

[Lord Damocles]

Helpfully, the Wiki page doesn't list which sources it's information is taken from. Rooting around in the history of the article, the list of sources wasn't added until long after the Norn Queens are mentioned as arguing with each other.

Of the (insufficient) sources listed, the only one which seems at all likely (I could check the first three, and the fourth seems only an extremely remote possibility) is White Dwarf 146 (UK). However this is listed as a source (still minus page number(s), mind) in Lexicanum's article - which doesn't mention the arguing; and looking at the contents of WD146 would indicate that the article is primarilly about Tyranids in space.

On the strength of what little evidence is given/available, I'd say this probably isn't(/wasn't) canon.

[CaptainGallas]

Sadly I didn't have the 146 WD, but I had the 145! There is a lot of Tyranid fluff in that one, that even I as a Nid player did not know of.

WD145 is from january 1992, and as 20 years have passed into history, some units have too.
There is actually a unit called Mind Slave Squad, in the picture they look like Chaos Space Marines.
It's written that some units are not used for food or broked down for their genetic material, they instead become hosts for immature grubs of various tyranid cratures.
Further it says that Mind Slaves can come from any race, and that they are often fielded in apparently random groups consisting of several races.

Why o why isn't Mind Slaves still a unit?!? I would love to make som infested conversions..

There are allso a unit called "Brood brothers", frequently drawn from planetary defence forces and local milita (i.e. IG models).
Theese guys have in most cases been implanted by Genestealers, and are completely devoted to the tyranids and fanatically loyal.

So really, you could do a Tyranid army with all kinds of units, beeing true to really old fluff.

A unit of infested Cadians could go as Brood Brothers, and be played as Termagants.
Infested Wraithguard could go as Mind Slaves and be played as Hive Guards and so on.. there is loads of options!

An infested tyranid army could look really great if you are a good painter and converter! Go for it!

[wyvirn]

I don't think that there is more than one Norn Queen per Hive Fleet, and most fleets aren't close enough to really interact. I know that when two fleets meet they try to eat one another so the stronger one lives and absorbs the loser's biomass and genetic memories and useful adaptations.
Honestly though, I think the less that is known about the tyranids, the better. They are the only race from beyond the galaxy, we don't even know whether this is their full force or a tiny fragment of some scouting party. I hope they never answer how the Norn Queens interact, or if they form a hive mind network or are just transmitters of the Hive Mind's will.

[Bannik]

The Norn Queens argue? I have never read that before, would you be able to provide a link to this wiki?

As for Tyranids draped in armour, with an individual Norn Queen, I don't see it really. You would be better looking at Hive Fleet Collossus. That is the only known hive fleet that ever communicated with the Imperium; they claimed to be fleeing from the rest of the Tyranids and travelled in living stone-skinned ships. They were sor tof a reimagined version of the zoats. However, during the Zorastra Attilla wars, the Imperium exterminated this fleet. They were telepathic and are the closest thing to what you seem to be after.

Otherwise, there are the genestealer cults. These cults have a lot of personality really, as they can come from any world genestealers infest. They can be cyberpunkish cultists from some hive world, or infest a feudal world and be an army of knights and peasants backed up by purestrains and mutant hybrids. The first genestealer of an infestation swells up with psychic power, until it is a bloated giant called a Patriarch. They are essentially worshipped by their enslaved human mind puppets.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Norn-Queen

"The Norn-Queens lead the Tyranid forces and direct the evolution of the Tyranid race. Although they are sentient beings unlike so many of the other Tyranid biomorphs, they spend their entire lives arguing with their "sisters" about how the next swarm of Tyranids could be better adapted to the species' needs. "

[Lothlanathorian]

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Norn-Queen

"The Norn-Queens lead the Tyranid forces and direct the evolution of the Tyranid race. Although they are sentient beings unlike so many of the other Tyranid biomorphs, they spend their entire lives arguing with their "sisters" about how the next swarm of Tyranids could be better adapted to the species' needs. "

That was already linked to in this thread and pointed out how very unreliable that is.

[El_Machinae]

Think about standing in the ice-cream isle of your supermarket. There's an internal debate (in your head) whether to buy ice cream, avoid ice cream (because of cost or health), or whether to get sorbet instead.

You've got (it seems) one cohesive mind, but there are separate minds 'debating' what to do. Eventually, one of them will win the argument.

And ..... that's my analogy

[elcoggins]

From what i remember of a source i read (annoyingly i cannot seem to find the source again) But Norn Queens arent the overall conciousness of the hive mind. They are the major birthing pods within the hive fleet. This being said they are psychically linked to the rest of the hive, as proven by the novel warriors of ultamar, as once one is dead, the tyranid inhabitants of the ship turned on each other, reverting back to a more basic instinct.
The Norn Queens are tied to their ships biometrically and once one dies a psychic shockwave happens which causes the some other biomass close by to create a subsequent queen thus creating splinter fleets. (again as i said i cant remember the source)
This being said i still believe there is another stronger tyranid creature in the back directing the tyranids

[dugaal]

El_Machinae sounds correct, I think the original quotes choice of words was too simple. Its almost analagous to petty old women, rather than vast super sentient minds calculating gene sequences, tactics, etc.

Also on an original question, the synapse power and range of all Tyranids combined is the Hive mind, no?

[Empirespy]

I have WD 146, there is a small mention of the norn queens, but the only bit is about what they do to control the hive fleet and if it's a massive fleet there will be more than 1, but it doesn't mention how they interact. It's nothing else tyranid in there, just a BFG rules for them.
Old tyranids used to be cool, with zoats being able to communicate and enter diplomatic negotiations, whilst gene stealer hybrids would infiltrate the planets. now they're just mindless zombies.

[Lord Damocles]

I have WD 146, there is a small mention of the norn queens, but the only bit is about what they do to control the hive fleet and if it's a massive fleet there will be more than 1, but it doesn't mention how they interact. It's nothing else tyranid in there, just a BFG rules for them.

Thanks.

It would appear then, that the arguing Norn Queens feature in none of the sources listed by the Wiki page (I checked Warriors of Ultramar just in case).
Looks like a myth busted to me

Old tyranids used to be cool, with zoats being able to communicate and enter diplomatic negotiations, whilst gene stealer hybrids would infiltrate the planets. now they're just mindless zombies.

Genestealer cults still exist, and are mentioned from time to time.
Zoats got an obscure reference in the background to Hive Fleet Collossus.
So it's not so bad.

[El_Machinae]

Also on an original question, the synapse power and range of all Tyranids combined is the Hive mind, no?

I don't know if the non-synapse 'nids that are in the process of being controlled by synapse 'nids end up adding to the whole, or draining willpower from the whole, of the Hive Mind