Impact hits and countercharge

[Confessor_Atol]

Hi Seers!

I've had my first few games agianst the new empire, and they're looking to be a very dynamic force.

My question is: 1) 4 Ogre mornfang cav charge a parent unit of 50 spearmen and a level 4 wizard. 2) A detachment of 20 halbreders countercharge one mornfang who didn't get into combat with the 5-wide unit of spearmen.........

I clearly get impact hits on the spearment. Do I also get impact hits on the countercharging detachment.

Answer my question, and I'll tell you how the combat turned out!

[theunwantedbeing]

Just read the rules on impact hits in the rulebook, it explains how it works.

[Spiney Norman]

No you don't, in fact I think there is something of an anomaly here because the rules don't envisage a situation where you can charge and be charged in the same turn, which is dumb because Empire detachments have been able to do this for forever.

"impact hits are only made on the turn the model charges into combat. If the model with impact hits is itself charged, or is fighting in a second or subsequent round of combat, then this rule gives no benefit." -p.71

So if a charging model with impact hits is counter charged, does it lose those impact hits since it has been legally charged, which appears to meet the conditions for the "this rule gives no benefit" clause. I think by a strict RAW reading of the rules, the Mournefangs wouldn't do any impact hits.

I think the most sensible way to play it is that the MFs in contact with the Spearmen cause hits and any others don't, another one to add to the slate for "FAQ this".

[theunwantedbeing]

I think the most sensible way to play it is that the MFs in contact with the Spearmen cause hits and any others don't,

Well that is what the rules say happens.
The mournfangs in base contact with detachments won't cause impact hits....as they're getting charged.
The mournfangs in base contact with just the spearmen do cause impact hits.

[Scalebug]

"impact hits are only made on the turn the model charges into combat. If the model with impact hits is itself charged, or is fighting in a second or subsequent round of combat, then this rule gives no benefit." -p.71

Interesting interpretation, though I would probably go for the intent of the rule being that you don't get impact hit if you don't charge, rather than being charged taking away your such attacks... mostly because a) Have never seen anyone play it that way (and never thought about it myself) and b) if it was actually intended for a countercharge (or overrun/pursuit move for that matter) to actually take away impacts, it would have said so right out.

footnote: The FAQ have nothing on it, aside from changing the wording a bit...

Page 71 – Resolving Impact Hits
Change “[...]this rule has no effect.” to “[...]no Impact Hits
are inflicted.”

Was going to look at the Empire FAQ, but it was taken down for the 8th ed book, I guess...


Edit: Nah... p.58 reinforces the "no, it's not actually removing the impact hits"-view,

"This might result in both sides having charging units in the same fight, in which case the charging units on both sides will get the normal bonuses conferred by charging (e.g. causing impact hits, benefiting from a lance's Strength bonus, etc., and other bonuses described later in this Rules section). Also, both sides will get the +1 combat resolution bonus, which will effectively cancel each other out"

[Confessor_Atol]

Just read the rules on impact hits in the rulebook, it explains how it works.

@ unwanted- Thanks for nothing man! You make the internet proud. Your thoughtless and dismissive answer embarrasses me for bothering to post on a forum, and sometimes for being part of a hobby that can find itself so self-important! Great Job!

@ Spiney Norman- Cheers budy. I appreciate you thoughtful answer. I really don't know that the impact hits rule is 100% clear on this and I agree it should be FAQed. You have restored my faith in the community we choose to participate in!

@Scale bug- That's what I'm talking about. Great analysis!

[Spiney Norman]

Well that is what the rules say happens.
The mournfangs in base contact with detachments won't cause impact hits....as they're getting charged.
The mournfangs in base contact with just the spearmen do cause impact hits.

Yes but depending on frontage you could end up with a situation where a model is both charging AND getting charged (the original example did say that the mournefang unit was charged by two detachments presumably one from each side so unless the Mournefangs were 6 wide at least one of them will be charging the Spearmen and charged by a detachment).

In fact I'm pretty us that you charge units not models, you can't charge one mournefang in a unit without having charged the others as well.

EDIT: Good catch by scalebug on p. 58, you still cause impact hits on the Spearmen, but not on the counter charging unit. Nice of them to scatter the rules for one subject all over the book...

So what happened in the combat?

[Confessor_Atol]

For simplicity's sake we played it that the last Mornfang doesn't get impact hits.

In retrospect, it was 45 spears, with 20 halberd detachment

MF charge: The charge saw impact hits killing 6 spearment, a further 6 were killed from ogre attacks, 7 more were killed by the MFs themselves, then 3 were stomped. 21 dead spears. The MF in the Halbreds killed 5. One wound is done in return by the halberds. Result: empire stubborn and sticking around

Empire turn:Ogres and MF kill 12 further spearmen leaving the unit at 12. I kill 4 halbreds, and the halberds do another wound to the MFs the empire player is jumping for joy because he things the unit will keep stead fast.......... Then I roll my stomps killing three spearmen, they lose steadfast and run with their wizard in tow. I'm still in contact with the steadfast halberds...I use my reform in victory to slide.

Ogre turn: I kill 6 or 7 halberds, they flee I persue and hit the fleeing spearmen and wizard killing them all. Empire army looses it's bowels, opponent puts on the sad face and concedes the game. Ogres eat well.

Thanks again Scalebug and Spiney!

Funny, My reading of page 58 is that the Impact hits will happen.....

[Spiney Norman]

Ummm, something is bothering me about this now I reread it.

The Mournefangs are 4 wide? On 50x100mm bases? And the spears are at least 5 wide if they are getting steadfast, which means they are 100mm wide frontage.

So why don't all 4 Mournefangs contact the Spearmen corner to corner, we're you playing with some crazy terrain setup or something?

Also, I can't say I'm overly shocked by the result, it's a shame your opponent didn't have a unit of IC knights or Demi-gryphs to throw down the MFs throat the turn after they charged.

[Confessor_Atol]

He had both Dimigryphs and IC knights, but I had them held up with the rest of my army... I got the charge on his knights with 10 bulls a BSB and a level 4 slaughter master, and they still managed to whittle that unit down to just the characters with buffs and de-buffs.

The spears had a building on their right flank, only 3 MFs could get into BtB. I suppose I might have been able to contact them at an angle and caused them to swing to me but in the heat of battle, some details get lost

[Tayrod]

Some guys over at warhammer empire is now claiming that by RAW counter-charging by detachments remove all impact hits. They are all quoting p71.

"Resolving Impact Hits
Impact hits are only made on the turn the model charges into close combat. If the model with impact hits is itself charged, or is fighting a second or subsequent round of combat, then this rule gives no benifit"

They are right by RAW, right?

[RanaldLoec]

Some guys over at warhammer empire is now claiming that by RAW counter-charging by detachments remove all impact hits. They are all quoting p71.

"Resolving Impact Hits
Impact hits are only made on the turn the model charges into close combat. If the model with impact hits is itself charged, or is fighting a second or subsequent round of combat, then this rule gives no benifit"

They are right by RAW, right?

Take that into context, its refering to the fact the impact hits are only caused when a units with impact hits special rule charges into combat. Being charged by another unit doesn't cancel that out.

The above quote is simply explaining that a unit doesn't cause impact unless it charges. Being counter charged or another unit overrunning into an unresolved combat won't cancel out the impact hits.

So

1) A unit with impact hits causes impact hits to any unit it charges be it in the charge phase or from an overrun or pursuit move.

2) The impact hits can only be resolved against a unit that has been charged.

3) A secondary unit entering the combat from counter charge, overrun, pursuit or magic wont suffer impact hits as there have not been charged by the unit with impact hits.

4) Reading the rules in context clarifys this point. Charging a unit does not cancel out its impact hits that it will inflict on another unit, simple the counter charging unit doesn't suffer any impact hits.

[jtrowell]

You forgot to specify the other quote from the empire book where we are reminded that the charging unit that you counter-charge still get all the benefit from the charge (including the +1 to CR that you get too).

[LiddellHart]

Some guys over at warhammer empire is now claiming that by RAW counter-charging by detachments remove all impact hits. They are all quoting p71.

"Resolving Impact Hits
Impact hits are only made on the turn the model charges into close combat. If the model with impact hits is itself charged, or is fighting a second or subsequent round of combat, then this rule gives no benifit"

They are right by RAW, right?

First, there is no such thing as a clear distinction between RAW and RAI. ALL words need interpretation, sometimes very easy, sometime less so. And you interpret the rules with what you think is intended by them. Often you do this automatically and without thinking about it.
Pure RAW has no value, they are just words in a sequence.

OT, in this case p.71 should be interpreted in accordance with p.58 quoted above. This leaves no room for wishful interpretations otherwise.

[AMWOOD co]

3) A secondary unit entering the combat from counter charge, overrun, pursuit or magic wont suffer impact hits as there have not been charged by the unit with impact hits

If I may, where do you get this one from, especially in light of the p58 reference made above?

[RanaldLoec]

Yes but depending on frontage you could end up with a situation where a model is both charging AND getting charged (the original example did say that the mournefang unit was charged by two detachments presumably one from each side so unless the Mournefangs were 6 wide at least one of them will be charging the Spearmen and charged by a detachment).

In fact I'm pretty us that you charge units not models, you can't charge one mournefang in a unit without having charged the others as well.

EDIT: Good catch by scalebug on p. 58, you still cause impact hits on the Spearmen, but not on the counter charging unit. Nice of them to scatter the rules for one subject all over the book...

So what happened in the combat?

In reference to pg 58 this, I was agreeing with norman.

[frenka]

If you make an overrun move or pursue into an enemie unit after a combat on your turn. Isnt it possible for the opponent to charge your chariot then even though it did a "charge" against his unit?

[Souppilgrim]

"If the model with impact hits is itself charged, or is fighting a second or subsequent round of combat, then this rule gives no benifit"
They don't get impact hits. It's as plain as day. You can argue that that isn't what the writers intended, and you very well might be right, and I might even allow it to be houseruled that way, but no, they don't get impact hits because the impact hits rule gives no benefit if the unit is charged, and the unit IS charged by the detachment.

[Glen_Savet]

Only the models that are countercharged would not cause impact hits, not the entire unit. Seems a bit unusual, and (imo) not intended, but that's how it's written.

[DivineVisitor]

"If the model with impact hits is itself charged, or is fighting a second or subsequent round of combat, then this rule gives no benifit"
They don't get impact hits. It's as plain as day. You can argue that that isn't what the writers intended, and you very well might be right, and I might even allow it to be houseruled that way, but no, they don't get impact hits because the impact hits rule gives no benefit if the unit is charged, and the unit IS charged by the detachment.

Don't be daft. There are examples elsewhere in the BRB of units being charged before impact hits can be resolved (e.g. overrun) and they still get the impact hits. Anyone trying to pull this one off in game needs a slap across the back of the head.