Impact hits and countercharge

[Jerry]

Don't be daft. There are examples elsewhere in the BRB of units being charged before impact hits can be resolved (e.g. overrun) and they still get the impact hits. Anyone trying to pull this one off in game needs a slap across the back of the head.

??? If a unit that causes impact hits is itself charged they don't cause impact hits anymore. It seems pretty simple, the empire book says charge bonus' ie CR I don't think it refers to impact hits.

[AMWOOD co]

"If the model with impact hits is itself charged, or is fighting a second or subsequent round of combat, then this rule gives no benifit"
They don't get impact hits. It's as plain as day. You can argue that that isn't what the writers intended, and you very well might be right, and I might even allow it to be houseruled that way, but no, they don't get impact hits because the impact hits rule gives no benefit if the unit is charged, and the unit IS charged by the detachment.

That sentence is used as the counter-example to the sentence before it where it states that Impact Hits only occur when the model charges. If it didn't do the charging then it was either charged or fought a previous round in the same fight. It's p58 that gives the specific case we want. That's the point scalebug brought up, that the book says, "...charging units on both sides will get the normal bonuses conferred by charging (e.g. causing impact hits... and other bonuses describes later in this Rules section)" (bottom left paragraph of p58). Note that this makes specific mention that it refers to rules later in the book, so it is an exception to the Advanced overrides Basic rule.

So, back to the original poster. To the best I can interpret the case, no Mournfangs would lose out on inflicting Impact Hits and, by the way Impact Hits is worded, the one in contact with both units will distribute its hits as evenly as possible between them (2nd paragraph of Resolivng Impact Hits, p71).

[dementian]

??? If a unit that causes impact hits is itself charged they don't cause impact hits anymore. It seems pretty simple, the empire book says charge bonus' ie CR I don't think it refers to impact hits.

Not sure why you threw anymore in there. That passage is referring to if a unit is charged by another unit whether the charging unit would have impact hits put onto it. Alternatively, couldn't one argue that the detachment is not charging the unit, they are counter charging and under impact hits it says if a unit is charged. Doesn't mention counter charging.


Anyways yes the charging unit gets impact hits as per p58

[Mercules]

"If the model with impact hits is itself charged, or is fighting a second or subsequent round of combat, then this rule gives no benifit"
They don't get impact hits. It's as plain as day. You can argue that that isn't what the writers intended, and you very well might be right, and I might even allow it to be houseruled that way, but no, they don't get impact hits because the impact hits rule gives no benefit if the unit is charged, and the unit IS charged by the detachment.

Taken out of context I can see why you would read it that way. However it doesn't exist alone.

Impact Hits are only made on the turn the model charges into close combat. If the model with Impact Hits is itself charged, or is fighting in a second or subsequent round of combat, then the rule gives no benefit.

The only way to get into combat is to charge or be charged. If you were not the charger, you do not get Impact hits. In the following turns you are no longer considered to be charging and so no longer get Impact Hits. This is clarification, not over ruling. This is made very clear when you include pg. 58's reference to Impact Hits.

[EDMM]

Taken out of context I can see why you would read it that way. However it doesn't exist alone.

The only way to get into combat is to charge or be charged. If you were not the charger, you do not get Impact hits. In the following turns you are no longer considered to be charging and so no longer get Impact Hits. This is clarification, not over ruling. This is made very clear when you include pg. 58's reference to Impact Hits.

Take the commas, and the text in between out of the second sentence (which is a perfectly legitimate grammatical conversion).

It reads as follows:

If the model with Impact Hits is itself charged then the rule gives no benefit.

That seems pretty darn clear to me, context notwithstanding.

Needs an errata. They should have written it better.

[Mercules]

That seems pretty darn clear to me, context notwithstanding.

You mean to say it reads thus:

Impact Hits are only made on the turn the model charges into close combat. If the model with Impact Hits is itself charged then the rule gives no benefit.

It really should be written thus:

Impact Hits are only made on the turn the model charges into close combat.

...and page 58 makes that clear for everyone.

[LiddellHart]

Take the commas? What do you mean by "Take the commas"? Take them where? You should clarify yourself.

Oh wait, let me put this in the context of the rest of your post, maybe I'll understand it better then.

[Azrothan]

Page 58 makes it crystal; impact hits on the unit you charged.

[Cambion Daystar]

Only the models that are countercharged would not cause impact hits, not the entire unit. Seems a bit unusual, and (imo) not intended, but that's how it's written.

What he said. The UNIT still causes impact hits EXCEPT the MODELS that are charged themselves.

[AMWOOD co]

What he said. The UNIT still causes impact hits EXCEPT the MODELS that are charged themselves.

So, how do you explain the p58 quote that's been mentioned?

[Cambion Daystar]

Because p58 talks about units, and so the unit in general is allowed impact hits. But certain models have their impact hits "removed" because they are charged themselves.
It makes it so that not the whole unit loses its impact hits because 1 model in the unit is charged.

[Mercules]

Except being charged doesn't mean you don't get Impact Hits on anyone... it means it doesn't trigger impact hits against the charging models.

[Cambion Daystar]

Except being charged doesn't mean you don't get Impact Hits on anyone... it means it doesn't trigger impact hits against the charging models.

Can you quote me that rule?

[Delicious Soy]

beh, I'd just say that the ogres cause impact hits on the main unit but not on the detachment, may not be RAW but seems equitable to me. Plus it would seem a bit silly if a chariot could lose its impact hits to a counter charge.

[Mercules]

Can you quote me that rule?

You've referred to it... you just think it says something it doesn't. It is a clarification, not a replacement.

[Delicious Soy]

Hang on, rereading this thread, if the empire book clearly says that charging bonuses are retained for all units, than irrespective of the interpretation of the BRB Impact Hit section the Empire Army book trumps the impact section on getting charged, even if you chose to interpret the section that way.

[Cambion Daystar]

Again, the UNIT doesn't lose the charging bonus, but under impact hits it states that MODELS that are charged themselves do not cause impact hits.

@Mercules I see no such thing there

[Mercules]

Again, the UNIT doesn't lose the charging bonus, but under impact hits it states that MODELS that are charged themselves do not cause impact hits.

It most certainly does not say that. It states:

Impact Hits are only made on the turn the model charges into close combat. If the model with Impact Hits is itself charged, or is fighting in a second or subsequent round of combat, then this rule gives no benefit. Note that if the model does not complete the charge for any reason (for example, because it is destroyed) then no Impact Hits will take place.

First sentence gives the conditions for Impact Hits to occur. The second sentence clarifies the first sentence it is not, as you are trying to interpret it, overrule or replace the first sentence. The third sentence gives the instance when the first rule doesn't apply. What this all boils down to is that a model only gets impact hits against models it charged and not models that charged it. Not that models charging it negate ALL impact hits against everything from that model.

Notice the difference between, "give no benefit" and "no Impact Hits will take place". This means that if unit X with Impact Hits overruns into unit A then on the next turn unit B charges unit X, the models of unit X will deal Impact Hits to unit A if they are in base contact with it, but will not deal Impact Hits to unit B even though Unit X is to have been considered Charging. In t7th Ed. you would get Impact Hits on both units. Now they have clarified the rule so that you will still deal Impact Hits to units you charged to move into contact with, but not units that moved into contact with you. That is why that language is in there, not to overrule Impact Hits completely but to prevent me from hitting unit B with Impact Hits.

To make it simple for those who are having difficulty with the concept, "Did I Charge it? Yes - It takes Impact Hits No - It does not take Impact Hits."

[Cambion Daystar]

"If the model with Impact Hits is itself charged, or is fighting in a second or subsequent round of combat, then this rule gives no benefit."

This says it all.

[Mercules]

No, it actually doesn't. You understand the word context, yes? Do you understand the concept of "Taking something out of context."?

"I don't think women should be allowed to vote."

is vastly different than,

"When it comes to deciding what sandwiches we have for our guys night out... I don't think women should be allowed to vote."

That is what you are doing. You are trying to apply meaning to a portion of the rules and thus giving it vastly different meaning than it has in conjunction with the rest of the rule.