Why are skaven so OP?

[Sh4d0w]

So there are a couple of skaven players around at my local store who I don't think have ever really grasped how to use skaven properly. They never really win and just seem to get demolished. They don't use any slaves which I suppose could be part of the problem.

My question is, what makes skaven so OP? I mean sure they can hold you up in combat for ages with their slaves but what do they really have apart from hellpits to do the damage? All I see the slaves are as holding the units so where does the real damage come from?

[Kuroi]

Uhm,
Good magic
Good warmachines
Almost always steadfast for atleast 3 turns
Alot of bodies on the field, a tool to handle almost every problem they're really versatile if you know how to use them.

[Rosstifer]

1 - Most of the army is practically unbreakable.
2 - Some of the most brutal magic in the game. 13th in particular is the most broken spell in Warhammer. No saves of ANY kind?! really?!. There goes 400pts of Chaos Warriors in one spell. Also, double Seer makes this even worse. Oh, he died on a miscact? Oh well, I have another one.
3 - Abom - Pretty tough and underpriced monster that many armies struggle to deal with.
4 - Furnace. Cause, y'know, Skaven run away so often anyway, why not give them a giant unbreakable combat unit? Plague banner makes this even nastier.
5 - Engineers. 15 pts. They can have either of 2 broken items. Doomrocket, or Brass Orb. Insanely cheap.
6 - Gutter Runners. Just Eurrgh. Imagine Shades, with poison and a 6+ ward. Eurrgh.
7 - Slaves. 2pt models that end up being LD10 with a reroll. Not necessarily broken, but so hard to deal with, and they can easily have 4 units of 50 and all the other toys. Oh, plus they can shoot and magic into combat that Slaves are in. So your NEVER safe from the magic and shooting.
8 - Warplightning Cannon. One of the nastiest Warmachines in the game, potential to easily ruin units of Cav and Monstrous Cav.
9 - Doomwheel. Brought any monsters to face the Ratmen? Sucks to be you!
10 - Rat Darts. Super cheap deployment drops and redirectors.

There is probably more.

The army has brutal synergy, and can do everything well. Skaven players will tell you it's unreliable, but honestly, there's so much that if one part doesn't work, it doesn't make much difference.

Basically, unlike other armies, Skaven ALWAYS gets to have their cake and eat it. And your cake as well. And your mum's cake. Possibly your neighbours cake too, if they are still peckish.

[Morkash]

Rosstifer provided an excellent outline. Skaven excel in every phase of the game, pretty much like Dark Elves do and that makes them very flexible and thus tough to deal with. They have many different playable builds, many nasty toys in form of Warmachines, other contraptions and magical items and are in 80% of the cases quite reliable. Sure, most things can blow up in some way or another, but on the other hand their troops rarely, if ever, break and the destructive potential of their units is enourmous!

[tmarichards]

The traditional weaknesses of Skaven have been that they have low leadership and are unreliable. However, the new book just doesn't have these because of their Strength in Numbers Mechanic and none of their war machines that use an artillery dice are any less reliable than others in the game using the same mechanic. Some are actually more reliable- the WLC puts down a template, the Doomwheel fires 3 shots and so on.

They have a very abusable core choice.

Their magic is very very good, and synergises with the rest of the book very well. Skitterleap becomes a must-stop spell if you have a Cauldron/Anvil/low initiative expensive troops.

They have a wide range of toys such as the Brass Orb, Storm Banner and Laser Guided Doomrocket.

They're not the easiest army in the game to get the hang of, but if it seems too good to be true then you're probably playing with Skaven.

[Maoriboy007]

...and its all cheap , cheap cheap! Buy one now and get another one free.....!

[Sophet Drahas]

Ok, so I'm still getting back into the game after having been out for about 6 years. What's all this about Skaven never breaking?! Back in 4th/5th/6th they broke all the time. I just had to show up with my vampire counts and they would break and run. What happened?

[Askari]

Steadfast and BSB, combined with Strength in Numbers. Re-rollable Ld10 check? It's not as if you're going to outnumber Skavenslaves...

[snyggejygge]

Steadfast happened...

[Andy p]

Steadfast and BSB, combined with Strength in Numbers. Re-rollable Ld10 check? It's not as if you're going to outnumber Skavenslaves...

Add in Warlord to that, since SIN is based on rank bonus and a rank bonus can only go up by 3, so no ld 10 for slaves unless they have a warlord nearby who is in a unit with a dicipline banner. Although I cant remember the Warlord's LD, im going to assume it is 9 until I see the book, however it could be less...

Then you factor in that distruption also cancels out SIN since it removes rank bonus and they will be running just as before. Of course this isn't necessarily easy to achieve, I never said it was and slaves are as cheap as they come, but people often get these rules confused and it results in misconceptions and...well....cheating.

From the FAQ:

Page 33 – Strength in Numbers
Change the second sentence of the first paragraph to “Units
with the Strength in Numbers special rule add their current
rank bonus to their Leadership value for any Leadership test.”

Q: Does a disrupted unit with the Strength In Numbers special
rule get to add its rank bonus to its Leadership? (p33)
A: No.
Q: Is the Leadership bonus from Strength in Numbers limited to
a maximum of 3? (p33)
A: Yes.

As an aside I was wondering about the fact that there were two topics by the same person but deliberately titled from a different perspective.

Are these topics both an experiment in bias designed to show how people are more likely to reply to something from a negative slant? Or was it that the OP merely posted two topics with the same starting post by accident and it got locked because of this?

[Rosstifer]

Grey Seer is LD7. So you don't need a Warlord.

[Andy p]

Grey Seer is LD7. So you don't need a Warlord.

It was in reference to his claim that slaves are ld10 rerollable, which isn't true.

I never said that this makes skaven less powerful, im just clearing up some misconceptions on their rules.

ps: Ninja'd my mistake in fact it CAN be achieved by a ld 7 Grey seer lol. Whoops.

[Rosstifer]

Why not? Last time I played Skaven he said Grey Seer is 7, +3 for SIN so that's LD10. Seemed legit to me?
Keen for anything that might tone them down!

[Andy p]

Why not? Last time I played Skaven he said Grey Seer is 7, +3 for SIN so that's LD10. Seemed legit to me?
Keen for anything that might tone them down!

Ah I see your point, that makes more sense. Of course I thought he was alluding to the old chesnut that slaves themselves just kept getting more ranks and therefore more LD, since he didnt mention any characters.

Of course that is a 12" bubble or 18" if on a bell, if you have lots of those slave units you cant cover them all....not that this is really much help with all the nastiness skaven have.

[Rosstifer]

Damn, I was hoping you'd noticed something I hadn't

Bloody Rats.

[Askari]

You know that both the Grey Seer and the Warlord are both Ld7 right? And you get rank bonus for SiN so 7+3 = 10?

EDIT:Ninja'd

[Andy p]

You know that both the Grey Seer and the Warlord are both Ld7 right? And you get rank bonus for SiN so 7+3 = 10?

EDIT:Ninja'd

lol Yeah, Ross just pointed that out to me, but as I said I just thought you meant slaves themselves.

[McBoner]

Before 7th edition slaves couldn't use a general's leadership....something about them being so eager to get away from their abusive masters at any possible opportunity.

Skaven Slaves being inspired by the general's leadership and filled with pride at the site of the BSB doesn't quite fit right tbh. Skaven are one of the least likely armies to run away as it currently is, which is kind of weird seeing as how their fluff goes on and on about how cowardly skaven are supposed to be.

[shelfunit.]

It was in reference to his claim that slaves are ld10 rerollable, which isn't true, that can never be achieved with a LD 7 Grey seer. The only way that could happen is with a warlord.

I never said that this makes skaven less powerful, im just clearing up some misconceptions on their rules.

EDIT - Mulitple ninjas later (clan eshin have sent their best I see) this post becomes... .....uurrrggg.... (sounds of satisfied chittering dissapearing into the distance)

[Andy p]

I did mention my mistake so I wasnt avoiding it. My ninja is my admission of mistake . But lol's for the clan eshin part.

My point about slaves however still stands.