Why are skaven so OP?

[Razakel]

This seems to be one of those problems where it's difficult to decide if Skaven are too good, or if the other armies simply need to be better optimized. Other people have outlined (much better than I could have) the fundamental problem with Skaven: everything works well together, and it's all cheap.

A friend of mine doesn't even play the fully optimized list (no WLC, HPA or screaming bell) but he does play with a horde of plague monks pushing a furnace, multiple plague claw catapults and several slave buses, even this "sub-optimal" list is fearsome. I don't know if Skaven stray into overpowered territory, but I think their army fuses together much better than other armies, and I think future army book authors should take note of the Skaven book, and try to emulate how well the units work together. Perhaps synergy + increased unit costs would make Skaven more bearable, but right now I'm feeling like they're at best overtuned, at worst OP.

[TsukeFox]

Grey Seer is LD7. So you don't need a Warlord.

One takes a warlord (who is cheap enough to buy) so that the Greyseer may run around, cause mischief, retreat bravely, & the army does not collapse if the Seer blows up.


Further!!
It is lies and slander!! Skaven are no where near OP- it it is those Ogre things!! Why there is like 89 pages on why they are in the Tactical section.

Besides none of the Skaven magic can be Powered up. No lore atrributes either. A great weakness in my book.

[Rosstifer]

Besides none of the Skaven magic can be Powered up. No lore atrributes either. A great weakness in my book.

Not really, they have the nastiest spell in the game, not too mention a bunch of other brutal spells.

[The bearded one]

One takes a warlord (who is cheap enough to buy) so that the Greyseer may run around, cause mischief, retreat bravely, & the army does not collapse if the Seer blows up.


Further!!
It is lies and slander!! Skaven are no where near OP- it it is those Ogre things!! Why there is like 89 pages on why they are in the Tactical section.

Besides none of the Skaven magic can be Powered up. No lore atrributes either. A great weakness in my book.

I most furtively agree-concur with warlord Tsukerat, yes-yes! Honoured seers, such as myself-I, lead bravely from the back, the position-place of honour!

Also noone can claim-say Skaven are overpowered-cheese! We fight fair-fair, paw on my heart (or tsukefox' heart preferrably)!

[TsukeFox]

I most furtively agree-concur with warlord Tsukerat, yes-yes! Honoured seers, such as myself-I, lead bravely from the back, the position-place of honour!

Also noone can claim-say Skaven are overpowered-cheese! We fight fair-fair, paw on my heart (or tsukefox' heart preferrably)!

Man cannot argue with that logic ( too busy laughing )

But for everyone else- look at all non 8th books. Very easy find combos to abuse in any of them (save wood elves-they are playable but one hardly even finds a war crime combo in the book.)

Look at the 8th edition books,lots of options & nothing thaat broken- (O&G I think got the short straw-where is their monstrous Calvary?? Why is the Arock not a smooth platform like the Fin iron blaster & crew??? Why are squig hoppers so $$$$, but most tourny list have multiple strength 5+ units to make up for it so I guess my complaints should just be grumbles. And construct rules are BS compared to vamp rules)

Besides we all know Skaven will get a new book before 9th edition so hopefully ole Vetock will not be writing that version.

[dementian]

Not really, they have the nastiest spell in the game, not too mention a bunch of other brutal spells.

The nastiest spell in the game cast on a 25+ with a 4+ to cast we need using average dice roll of 3.5 to use 6 dice to cast it. It will kill an average of 14 models and 24 with a perfect roll. Any of the characteristic test spells on a unit with T3 or S3 with unit size of 28+ will kill the same amount as D13 will on average. Use it on units bigger and your kill rate increases dramatically. There are spells with way higher possible killing potential. You are probably just sore because you play something like warriors of chaos with a crazy stat line so all the test or die spells suck against you.

[TsukeFox]

Not really, they have the nastiest spell in the game, not too mention a bunch of other brutal spells.

The nastiest spell that does not work against ogres or most of brets. As for the other spells-not being able to extend the range on "wither" is heart wrenching when freskin "miasma" has 48" (WTF.) just saying upgrading the 8th edition format will finally catagrize the spell types.

[DaemonReign]

... Ok so on average Slaves seems to be described as the big problem (sure 13th sounds dangerous but there's lots of those kinds of spells flying around in this awesome Edition!)..
Now, forgive me (I don't play against Skaven, I've just read the book back and forth) but those giant units of slaves look like very juicy targets for other nuke-spells as far as I am concerned.
Dwellers? Purple Sun might not be that awesome against them, but hey if you boost it and covered enough models.. Final Transformation... As a Daemon player I'd love to force through a Plaguewind on a unit like that (I'd probably end up with more Nurglings than I've got models, for a change!).

So.. eeh? What am I missing here?

[dementian]

... Ok so on average Slaves seems to be described as the big problem (sure 13th sounds dangerous but there's lots of those kinds of spells flying around in this awesome Edition!)..
Now, forgive me (I don't play against Skaven, I've just read the book back and forth) but those giant units of slaves look like very juicy targets for other nuke-spells as far as I am concerned.
Dwellers? Purple Sun might not be that awesome against them, but hey if you boost it and covered enough models.. Final Transformation... As a Daemon player I'd love to force through a Plaguewind on a unit like that (I'd probably end up with more Nurglings than I've got models, for a change!).

So.. eeh? What am I missing here?

The problem with that plan is that is exactly what a Skaven player would want you to do. Spend your time blowing up our 2 point models while we can get our more killy things into position.

[Rosstifer]

The nastiest spell in the game cast on a 25+ with a 4+ to cast we need using average dice roll of 3.5 to use 6 dice to cast it. It will kill an average of 14 models and 24 with a perfect roll. Any of the characteristic test spells on a unit with T3 or S3 with unit size of 28+ will kill the same amount as D13 will on average. Use it on units bigger and your kill rate increases dramatically. There are spells with way higher possible killing potential. You are probably just sore because you play something like warriors of chaos with a crazy stat line so all the test or die spells suck against you.

Warriors, Beastmen and Demons, and it's bloody horrible against all of those armies. Bam, there goes 400pts of Chosen, a rank and a half off my Bloodletter Horde. And that's only on average. With 2 Seers and a Power Scroll, they can get it off 3-4 times a game. Sure it's only OK against T3 Infantry, but they are all dead anyway because of the Doom Rocket, Scorch, and all the other Template Weapons. Perhaps the spell in itself isn't the worst, but combine it with all the other underpriced, super effective toys that the Army has and you get the most broken army in Warhammer.

Plus, you can 13th into Combat with Slaves, which, whilst very thematic, is utterly horrid.

I should probably mention I've only played against maxed out filthy Skaven (Double Grey Seer, 30 Gutter Runners, all the Toys) so that colours my view a bit.

I can tell from the book you can build some awesome themed armies, that are still effective and look cool on the Tabletop.

[DaemonReign]

The problem with that plan is that is exactly what a Skaven player would want you to do. Spend your time blowing up our 2 point models while we can get our more killy things into position.

Ok. I understand what you're saying.. But..
If I wipe out half (or more) of that gargantuan Slave-unit 'in one go' wouldn't that also free up resources for me to focus on those other more killy things?
Admittedly, Plaguewind is too specific since it's from the Daemon Nurgle Lore (and has a silly low casting value too) - but BIG units of crap-troops like that are really just waiting to be nuked by other spells too.
Well, I shouldn't say anything really since I don't face Skaven IRL but still..

[Grocklock]

Whoa whoa whoa who ever made a post saying they were underpowered? The other post said Why are skaven so bad? And the question in the thread was essentially the same. What makes them strong, when bad was said it wasn't about them being weak it was what makes them strong or bad to fight against.

The OP knows some skaven players who perform poorly and wants to know how to make them better.

EDIT: To add to the thread, a Skaven army not using skavenslaves is going to be hurting themselves, having large units of slaves to hold up scary blocks and to have a spot to unload on is immensely useful.

If a post says why are skaven so bad that normally means they are not good, i made the short leap to underpowered because i thought that was where the post was going, but maybe i was wrong,

[GodlessM]

Further!!
It is lies and slander!! Skaven are no where near OP- it it is those Ogre things!! Why there is like 89 pages on why they are in the Tactical section.

Spoken like a true Skaven player; they all try to deny their brokenness. In fact it seems all the arguments against Skaven being OP comes from Skaven players.

Fact is though, Lindsey Lohan will sooner stay out of rehab for more than a week before Skaven are considered a tame army book.

As for the idea that Skaven are being redone this edition; not from what we've heard.

[DaemonReign]

In fact it seems all the arguments against Skaven being OP comes from Skaven players.

Don't forget the Daemon player who's got no actual experience of playing them!! :P

Seriously though, there's something to be said for when the herd-wagon gets rolling on some subject like this. I'm sure Skaven are a formidable army, and reading their Army Book it also looks like a really 'fun' army (variation, specialization, lots of cool stuff) but when the whining starts tilting too much I (for one) can't blame Skaven players for standing up and going: Hey, let's at least be reasonable!

[Askari]

Ok. I understand what you're saying.. But..
If I wipe out half (or more) of that gargantuan Slave-unit 'in one go' wouldn't that also free up resources for me to focus on those other more killy things?
Admittedly, Plaguewind is too specific since it's from the Daemon Nurgle Lore (and has a silly low casting value too) - but BIG units of crap-troops like that are really just waiting to be nuked by other spells too.
Well, I shouldn't say anything really since I don't face Skaven IRL but still..

I'd love if you wasted a Purple Sun on Skavenslaves - I wouldn't even bother trying to dispel it, you wipe out "half" a unit of 80, that's still a solid block of 40 you need to deal with. You don't have more resources, Skavenslaves are 2pts each, Daemons have nothing even close to that point range in the entire list, Skaven will always have more toys and tricks to play with than you, and while you're using precious Power Dice to wipe out 40pts of models a turn, I'll be doing the same to wipe out several ranks of Bloodletters a turn.

[DaemonReign]

I'd love if you wasted a Purple Sun on Skavenslaves - I wouldn't even bother trying to dispel it, you wipe out "half" a unit of 80, that's still a solid block of 40 you need to deal with.

Fair enough.
All though I thought 40 slaves was concidered a manageable size (?)

Speaking of Daemons.. You'd try and stop Plaguewind though I reckon?

[Askari]

Fair enough.
All though I thought 40 slaves was concidered a manageable size (?)

Speaking of Daemons.. You'd try and stop Plaguewind though I reckon?

40 Slaves will still keep a Bloodthirster tied up for a couple of turns...

Nah, the Skaven have a better version of the same spell

[DaemonReign]

40 Slaves will still keep a Bloodthirster tied up for a couple of turns...

Bloodthirster wouldn't be what I'd send in there to finnish off such a decimated unit.
But fair enough. I see the points you're making and I have no experience of Skaven so I shouldn't second guess..

Nah, the Skaven have a better version of the same spell

13th better than Plaguewind?
Maybe against certain units. With Plaguewind's current casting value I wouldn't exactly want to trade though..

[The bearded one]

13th better than Plaguewind?
Maybe against certain units. With Plaguewind's current casting value I wouldn't exactly want to trade though..

No, he was referring to the spell plague, which also forces an eneitre enemy unit to take toughness tests without armoursaves, but on a 1 it then backfires onto a skaven unit, on 2-4 nothing else happens, and on 5-6 it passes on to another of the enemy's units. The castingvalue is the same.

[DaemonReign]

Thanks for clearing that up TBO.