need some serious help with daemons

[Lord Squidar]

Hi Guys,

So about a month ago, I started daemons. I was al enthusiastic about it, and did lots of research on the army, and decided that there was a general amount of moaning on the net, but I would live with it since it can't be all that bad.

It is all that bad.

Today I played 4 games in a row, all at 500 points. Maybe daemons are just poorly balanced at this points level. What happened is that I can't not scatter at least 7 inches or more when I deploy. And scattering into impassable terrain, when the other directions around it are empty. Bad luck to be sure. Secondly, I keep rolling poorly on my reserves. very poorly. As in my assault troops are always coming in on the last turn when I dont have to roll for it, and its automatic. In all 4 of my games. Over two weeks.

Its really getting my down and I want to be good at them, but at the moment I feel like smashing them or putting them away in the cupboard, at the very best I am regretting the battalion box I have put it into this project. Not much I know but I am poor =)

Ok so now that we are done feeling sorry for ourselves, lets try make it work.

I have 20 bloodletters, 5 seekers, 10 horrors, the changeling 1 herald of tzeentch, 1 herald of nurgle, and a daemon prince.

I usually take the tzeentch herald, all the horrors and changeling,the dp and 7 bloodletters. I get severly curb stomped. With everything coming in drabs, and the small sizes of the enemy, they usually fire at each unit with their whole army.

So what can i do??? At this current point in time, I am not prepared to buy any more models unless its skulltaker that fixes all my problems. I can also get hold of the assault on black reach orks in about 5 minutes easily so this might be a solution to the heachache, but I am a follower of the chaos gods, I won't chicken out now =)

HELP PLEASE!!!!

[Sami]

You really should have listened to that advice. Daemons are quite possibly the worst army out there at the moment. An assault based army that has to deep strike everything, has no grenades and no ability to charge when arriving. Genius! Unless tailoring to face specific armies, the one build that works well is known as "Fatecrusher", which consists of taking Fateweaver and a big blob of Bloodcrushers, and even then this is quite unreliable. In general though, the codex it terrible. 500 points is also hard to build any army around, let alone one that can only start with half of the models on the table.

Amusingly, the fantasy version pretty much single handedly destroyed the game.

I honestly wouldn't ever treat 500 point games as being in any way balanced or competitive for most armies. Play them for fun or to get used to certain units, but up your points to at least 1000 for proper games.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

Hmm. Difficult. You're critically short on the better units in a codex that struggles with exactly the issues you're having. Of your models, only the Prince has any chance of surviving his arrival without help.

You'd best exchange the bloodletters in your list for the seekers. Split the horrors into two squads, each with a bolt. So, Herald of Tzeentch, two bolt-horror units, a bolt daemon prince, and the seekers. That's 500 if my off-hand math is correct.

Start by landing the Prince about 15-18" from the enemy (and 12" from table edges and impassable terrain!), preferably shielded from as much of their firepower as possible. Have your second initial unit be 5 horrors w/bolt joined by the bolt herald aim for right next to him (or further behind him if "next to" is suicidal due to scatter next to enemy models or impassable terrain). Bolt some vehicles and hopefully diminish the return firepower. Land the extra horrors nearby as fire support, and the seekers behind to come in and mop up later. (If your opposition lacks vehicles, open with both units of horrors to concentrate anti-infantry firepower.)

[Lord Squidar]

I get to 532 with that list above, is there something I am doing wrong?

Herald of T - bolt, master of sorcery, we are legion
5 seekers
5 horrors + bolt + changeling
5 horrors + bolt
DP with MoTzeentch and BoTzeentch.

thats it. pity my DP is painted in khorne colours standing in a pool of blood =(

[FashaTheDog]

Well Daemons killed 7th edition Fantasy (and still are considered in 8th by some to be some obscenely broken they flat out refuse games against them regardless of the list as well of a tournament that banned them and prevented me from attending since it was my only Fantasy army large enough at the time). Clearly the solution was to make sure that the new Grey Knights book made the already struggling 40K codex that much worse off.

Rant aside, you need to follow this guide:

1. Take your dice out back right now.
2. Douse them in a flammable substance of your choice, I prefer kerosene, but whatever floats your boat.
3. Watch them burn as you gleefully dance around the burning pile that was once dice.
4. Go to your local gaming store and test roll some dice to find the ones that love you and want you to take them home and love them.
5. Buy a small tin or pretty dice bag. You could also build a box from scratch too.
6. Put your new dice, your BETTER dice, in their new happy home.
7. Never let another living soul touch them. EVER.

Now all your problems have been solved regarding chance.

The next step is to look at future purchases. In addition to Sami's suggestion regarding Fatecrusher, Daemonettes have worked well for me in 40K thanks to a rending, assault grenades, and their decent Initiative. They tend not to get the "must kill" knee jerk reaction Bloodletters receive and if you field both, then Khorne takes one for Slaanesh, and you never even knew he went that way. Plaguebearers have been a good scoring unit for me as well. I just drop 20 on an objective and call it mine. Flamers are a good one shot unit, coming in off an icon and dropping some flamer template loving. However, as Sami pointed out, 500 points is tough for most armies. The only army I feel great about at that level is Dark Eldar. The biggest problem with 500 points is you lack the points to do much past the basics with all but a few armies, and those that can look at shiny toys at that level make the game hell for everyone else. Try a 1,000 points and perhaps a little less impassible terrain if you load up on that and watch as you have more fun with the army.

If you're curious about my comfort, I take either a pair of Ravagers armed with disintegrators, a raider mounted Warrior squad with a blaster, a foot squad with a blaster, a Haemunculus, and flickerfields and night shield on all vehicles or if Combat Patrol rules are in effect a five strong Warrior squad in a Raider and three Ravagers, 1 with dark lances, the others with disintegrators, and again night shield and flickerfields on everything.

[Demio]

Your main problem is points level. At 500 points your not getting much bang for your buck especially with only half coming on as said by Sami. Try some higher point games and see what you think, they are great fun.
I cant comment on units really as I run only khorne and don't pay much interest to the rest.

OH and pray to the dice gods!!!!!

[Nurgling Chieftain]

I get to 532 with that list above, is there something I am doing wrong?

I can't duplicate that number, but I was working without any extra upgrades (master of sorcery, we are legion, changeling). They're nice to have, but at such low points values, you need wounds on the table. It's hard to afford even the 5 point Changeling gamble.

[Kelanen]

500 points is indeed not proper 40k. The game is utterly broken at that level unless you use Combat Patrol, or 40k in 40 minutes or something similar, and even then it's a whole different game. Don't look for anything vaguely balanced or viable in the game until you hit at least 1k points, and the game is principally designed around the 1.5-2k level. So for a start, thinking you can do anything other than learn the basic mechanics of the game, and a little about using your units is a fallacy. 40k as a proper game just doesn't exist at 500pts.

Secondly, the cool thing about about Daemons conceptually is that you essentially have the same army, and very closely tied mechanics in both games. The big problem with them however is the same! WFB is a game where movement is comparatively slow and matters a lot, most units lack ranged capability, morale has a more pronounced effect (and affects other units) and in general the game is more tactical and less strategic. 40k is the opposite of all these things. Building one army with with one set of concepts, albeit mechanically implemented with small changes gives you an army that broke one game completely, and pretty much sank without trace in the other.

40k is that other, and in general terms it's a dire army. I disagree it's the worst army in 40k, I think that currently sits with either Tau, or the abortion of a codex that is the WD SoB update. Daemons is undoubtedly a bottom three codex from the 16 codexes currently legal though. If you are comfortable trying to get an underdog to work (and all of the problems you've found are very real, and you will always have) then you can have fun with it. If you are not comfortable with an army like that, and want something that works well out of the box, and does pretty much what you want it to do when you want it to, then honestly put the army down now. Sell it on eBay, and pick a new army, because this is never going to be something you are happy with (I fall into that category too).

Like most weaker codexes, that doesn't mean things are hopeless. I play Tau, and my other big armies are Eldar and CSM - both weaker armies at present. What you do have to realise with a weaker codex is that you have to make a choice - you can play stuff you like, and do mediocrely against any serious competition. Or you can look to play with a strong competitive list, which will likely mean that your list is 80% the same as anyone else playing that codex with a competitive mindset. Eldar can compete, but only with MechDar, FireDragons and S6 spam. CSM are all built around twin Lash Princes, Berzerkers, Plague Marines and Obliterators. For Daemons that means you are playing FateCrusher. There are basically two flavours or ways to build it, but that's as far as your competitive choices go. Depending on your mindset as a player that may satisfy you or it may not.

Ultimately though, there's no point in us blowing smoke up your **** and saying it will all get better, because it won't. You have three choices really - you can play them for fun, you can play a netlist competitively, or you can pick another army. None of those three options is going to be worthwhile at 500pts though.

[Lord Squidar]

Thanks for the advice guys. I am still not defeated and ready to give up the army, especially since I have just spend the last hour watching american pie, painting bloody bases and reading your comments. Ok american pie was for slaanesh.

I think I know what I need to do...

1. harden the bleep up
2. make the game as fun for me to play as possible, i do love the daemon models for a start
3. get skulltaker. I loved the herald of khorne and skulltaker is better. I want my opponents to tremble and by golly I want skulls on a 4+
4. deploy further back and try to hug cover
5. bring back my seekers, these crazy women hit like a gold brick wrapped in a slice of lemon, and are fast.
6. get my own dice. tomorrow. red ones. for blood. maybe using the GW's dice for every game has tainted my throwing hand too, I need to lop it off.
7. plot my revenge against the corpse god
8. more blood

In all seriousness... I think it can work, and as you guys say 500 points is not a good indication. the GK player does bring a 5 man squad with all assault cannons, so I guess one unit like that dominates the field. Very soon I am going to get a bloodthirster too so I can throw all my eggs in one basket in these small games and crush my opponents. I think the beastman ghorgon with balrog wings and daemon prince axe will look sweet.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

Your opponent is Grey Knights?

...

You're playing a game of duck hunter. As the duck.

[Lord Squidar]

Grey Knights and space wolves mostly, a few smatterings of Blood Ravens and Ultramarines.

[Bonzai]

My solution to the above problems, was to focus on mono Tzeentch. I have a safer deep strike zone, as I just have to be within shooting range. My units get to be useful the turn they come in and shoot. They also have a better Inv save, which helps them last longer. Is it the best list? No. Is it competative? No. Is it good for friendly games? You bet.

My 500 points list?

Herald of Tzeentch w/ Chariot
Herald of Tzeentch w/ Chariot
10 Horrors w/ bolt, changeling
10 Horrors w/ bolt
Total: 495

Horrors provide a little anti-tank, though hopefully that isn't needed to badly at 500, and the Heralds can pen armor 10, or glance armor 11. Pop what ever armor you can, and use weight of fire for the rest.

[fluffymcfluff]

Daemons are a difficult army to learn, I took many a beating for a long time before I figured them out. If you are getting a bloodthirster soon that will help alot, if you bought the battalion shouldn't you have daemonettes as well?.

Based on what you have I would put your horrors in one squad, just for durabillity purposes. I would use more bloodletters if possible, what they lack in shooting they more than make up for in assault. I also run mono khorne so am a little biased towards bloodletters.

Skulltaker is the man, I would put him on a chariot or a juggernaut if you can, if not he will still dish out the pain.

Daemonic assault is the worst part about the daemons, but it also has it's advantages. I would suggest when you split your force try to keep them as close to the same as possible, that way your not totally screwed if you don't get your preferred wave. Cover is your friend use it as much as you can while you advance on your opponet. I have found that playing very aggressive with my daemons has had better results than being passive and laying back.

Soul grinders are also very handy to have around for shooting support, they will also draw alot of fire from your opponets saving your troops from taking all of it.

Good luck with your daemons and don't give up on them yet.

[youngsamwise]

You need to decide if you want to continue to play at 500 pts. If you are required to run two troops and an HQ at 500 pts, that is just...bad... daemon troops suck for what they cost. You best bang for the buck is always in your elite slots and your HQ/HS are your powerhouses. You can't afford any of them when you are investing 400+ pts in just a unit of 10x bloodletters, 10x pink horrors and a tzeentch herald!

By the way, daemons are over-powered against just about any flavor of marines under 1500 pts. Above 1500 pts and you start to struggle with survivability and AV spam which is why everyone runs Fatecrusher above 1500. The daemon codex spams things that ignore 3+ armour saves...phlegm, breath of chaos, daemonic gaze, monstrous creatures, rending at high initiative with grenades, power weapons at WS5 and furious charge...

Have no fear, your codex isn't as bad as people make it out. It has some balance issues, sure, but every time you win a game people will say "Wow, Lord Squidar is really good!" And secretly, you will know that your codex is designed to do one thing REALLY well...and that is kill marines. Don't be surprised when you get owned by Dark Eldar or Orks though That said, Daemons are NOT an easy army to play and there are some tactics with building redundancy into your list, splitting your waves, and learning how to shrug off a mishap or late reserves along with target prioritization, deepstrike tactics and placement etc. But that is all tactics, so it's stuff you can learn it, which is a hopeful thing. After all, you can't learn your codex to stop sucking! Alot of people see these obstacles, call the codex bad and move on. Or even tried to run daemons and had the same results you have been having. It gets better if you are willing to invest in learning how to make it better.

If you want to have some fun (not talking about winning, just fun here) at 500 pts you could try this:

3x nurglings
3x nurglings
Soul Grinder w/ phlegm
Soul Grinder w/ phlegm
Herald of Tzeentch on chariot w/ bolt of tzeentch and master of sorcery

or a more reasonable and balanced approach:

4x bloodcrushers w/ full command
5x pink horrors w/ bolt
5x pink horrors w/ bolt
Herald of Tzeentch on chariot w/ bolt of tzeentch, master of sorcery and we are legion

Now the question is this: Do you know the best way to split your waves? I do...and so do a bunch of other daemon players... http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...e-Wild/page332 Where all your wildest daemon dreams come true.

[Lord Squidar]

Sorry for some terrible threadomancy but... I won! Twice! Horray!

So what did I do differently... I followed all your advice above. Firstly I realised that I have been trying to destroy the entire opposing army in turn 2. Just because daemons are an assault army doesn't mean they should be doing that. I deployed a bit further back and in less dangerous areas, and it worked well. Suddenly going from a 5+ invuln to a 4+ cover made the world of difference. I still had the ultimate shame of 4 seekers of slaanesh being charged by 4 blood angels scouts and losing all of them. My bad dice rolling again.

I also dropped the blood letters for daemonettes. Ok it didn't have the promised effect of ah lets ignore it, but having more numbers on the field helped greatly. I even managed to deep strike into area terrain and only lose one model, but that move won me the game since I took an objective =)

Although he is expensive as hell, I have started using a daemon prince of khorne with wings and blessing. In these small games, when he decides to come down the lazy sod, there is nothing he can't destroy utterly, I even had the grey knights quaking in their boots.

As a last note, I have to be really careful with some things. When I was deploying, my opponent was basically salivating and chanting for a mishap, and he started seeing mishaps everywhere. I need to be careful that my opponent doesn't pull some strange rules on me to make one of my units go poof. I also am going to try make some icon markers so I can give them to the unit without having a model hold the icon so its not permanent.

Thanks for the advice it really helped!

[scapegoatboy69]

Here's a big an complicated table that includes useful information on Deep Striking: http://advancedmathhammer.blogspot.c...iking-and.html

At higher point values, try taking Icons and Plaguebearers. Fateweaver... might be a bad idea at this low a point level. He's a freaking amazing model, but watching 1/2 to 1/3rd of your army get hit once by a bolter and then run away is pretty demoralizing.

To ease your cashflow problems, try buying warhammer fantasy Daemons. Same model, cheaper price, just swap out the base for a round one.

[Vsurma]

At 1850 I can get 1465pts in wave 1 and 385pts in wave 2.

Wave 2: 2 plaguebearer units, 1 nurgling, 1 horror/changeling and 2 units of screamers, 6 units total

Wave 1: fateweaver, 2 crushers, 1 fiend unit, 2 heralds of tzeentch and a demon prince.

It totally sucks when I fail to roll for wave 1 but when I do I have all the important things on the table. Wave 2 is mostly for taking objectives.

Now what is in each wave depends on the opponent being played but the point is, as the points level goes higher, you can get more and more on the table in your first wave.

39pts nurgling units are great at making sure you get the maximum amount in your first wave. Plague bearers for objectives are nice also. (you can make nurgling models yourself)

I really don't think demons work at such low point levels though. Everyone else can max out on amazing choices, demons require synergy between their units, only wound allocation crushers are amazing on their own.

Heralds are pretty decent as well though, the chariot ones, slaanesh/tzeentch are both great.

[Kevlar]

Put them on square bases. You will be much happier.