Lvl 4 or 3 Lvl 2's?

[WizzyWarlock]

I've recently been looking at the magic phase and how best to use it and, after rolling 11 for magic dice and the level 4 going on to fail the first cast, thus wasting all those dice, I've been wondering how multiple level 2's would work out. Usually I only use a Level 4 which get gets a +4 to cast and dispel, so that's pretty good, however, the level 2's would get 3 dice to roll for channelling, you would be able to continue casting after a failed cast, would have more position across the board for magic to be used, more access to arcane items, plus you'd have all 6 spells in your lore available across the three. Not counting signature spells of course.

So, does this seem like a good plan, or is a level 4 a better pick regardless of its disadvantages? Has anyone else tried multiple level 2's over a single level 4?

[Malorian]

Go with the level four and just be careful to look at the averages of dice and how important it is for you to get a certain spell off.

Sure you might roll the rare sextuplet-one, but if you are only rolling 2 dice with your level 4 when you need an eleven you better be prepared with the fact the likelihood that it will fail.

[IcedCrow]

On the flip side, I've never used a level 4 in this edition yet and have done very well. Internet wizdomz disciples tend to bug their eyes out when you show up to play them and for some it throws off their game a little bit (because they get cocky and over confident since internet wizdomz says if yo udon't take the level 4 you are going to get stomped)

[Malorian]

On the flip side, I've never used a level 4 in this edition yet and have done very well. Internet wizdomz disciples tend to bug their eyes out when you show up to play them and for some it throws off their game a little bit (because they get cocky and over confident since internet wizdomz says if yo udon't take the level 4 you are going to get stomped)

It's funny, the guys in Jaded Gamercast used to say the same thing... until they did get stomped in a couple of tournaments. Now they are well in the lvl 4 camp.

Magic is an important aspect of the game with many random factors. Making sure to take advantage of the parts you can control will simply make you stronger over all.

[Sexiest_hero]

I get by with a herdston and lvl 3, with tons of lvl 2. I'm sure I can get by on a lvl 2 as I build my list to be anti magic. IDK if any other army can get away with that.

[Dreadlordpaul]

My mono nurgle WoC list has a single level 2 in it with a spell familiar and ruby ring. Hes the only caster as im trying to not rely on magic.

[WizzyWarlock]

Go with the level four and just be careful to look at the averages of dice and how important it is for you to get a certain spell off.

Sure you might roll the rare sextuplet-one, but if you are only rolling 2 dice with your level 4 when you need an eleven you better be prepared with the fact the likelihood that it will fail.

That's the thing, even if you do throw more dice at a spell, there's still the chance you're going to fail the cast and thus end your magic phase. That happened to me repeatedly in my last game, I had a single level 4 and a few times got 10 or 11 dice magic phases, but even throwing a decent number of dice at a spell (3 dice at a 10+ to cast) I still failed and lost the remaining 8 dice. It's just a waste. Multiple casters would remove that problem while giving the possibility of more dice from the increased number of channeling rolls.

[Malorian]

Maybe we should start with more specifics:

-What army are you using? (your avatar says WE)
-And what lore are you using?

[bigbear bailey]

I'd have to go with M on this one and say in larger point games you do need that LV4. Sure you can ''get by'' but any good player knows that you never want to just get by. A LV2 would only really work if you were going insanly magic defensive (a scroll, and some resistiance to some units) but then again you are losing out of a very important part of the game; magic.

[Jericho]

As Loremaster and bonus dice are getting less and less common in the new books, I think people might start taking a support caster or the odd Innate Bound Spell item/unit/mount/whatever (ie, the Empire wizard mobiles or the Casket of Souls). It is a bit of a shame when you lose concentration on a wizard and fail to cast, but at least you didn't blow up!

Anyway, the other alternative that is sometimes tempting is to take 2 L4's, but I've never had that work out well for me. Any time I play those lists there's never even close to enough dice to go around. The multiple +4 to dispel can be handy, but again you should be trying to ensure that you always succeed on your dispel attempts to keep the +4 ready. You get a couple fewer dispel attempst throughout the game but burning 3 dice and not stopping the spell is IMO way worse than throwing that fourth DD.

[medevilmike]

Id need to know the army to...my woc tourny list has 1 lvl 2 sorc on a disk with third eye d scroll gold eye, while my beast have 5 mages spamming 1 die spells next to a herdstone with 2 bound spells and reroll wounds on a unit, with 5 mages my average dice roll is 12pd....pray for double 1 and laugh

So, army is a huge factor

[Malorian]

Anyway, the other alternative that is sometimes tempting is to take 2 L4's, but I've never had that work out well for me. Any time I play those lists there's never even close to enough dice to go around.

I only really support this with double greyseer (double 13th backed by free warp tokens is NASTY!) but otherwise like you say there isn't enough dice to support it.


If you really want a back up then toss the ruby ring on another character. Cheap and straight forward with the bonus of no risk to miscast.

[bigbear bailey]

Yeah I don't think people look at those cheap bound things enough. I honestly think the best use out of them in throwing all the dice at them letting the miscast break them. Sure ruby ring doesn't really call for this, but the ones that are pretty strong do.

[WizzyWarlock]

Maybe we should start with more specifics:

-What army are you using? (your avatar says WE)
-And what lore are you using?

As you guessed, Wood Elves. However, it was just a theory that multiple 2's might work out better than a 4. With Wood Elves I always took a Level 4 for Life/Beast Lore, though I've recently started looking at Athel Loren Lore and been thinking it might work quite well if the spells are available. For example, the immune to missiles spell on a Noble on Eagle heading for Warmachines would be fantastic. Noble doesn't make the charge? The 6th spell with a 2D6 charge might do it.

I just find the whole Level 4, all eggs in one basket thing, seems to be a bit hit or miss compared to the possibility of multiple 2's. Though I haven't tried it yet, hence the post.

[Malorian]

Ok, well wood elves are different. Although you have access to great lores, it isn't offensive for the most part and the buffs are wasted on your weak units.

You have a wonderful defensive item that allows you to reroll dispel dice, but it has to go on a lord anyway. With that in mind you may want to go with a lvl 3 and then depending on if you take a bsb then toss the ruby ring on him, or if you take a treeman then obviously it has some spells to cast.

I wouldn't go with triple lvl 2s though. I just don't see it as being effective.

Putting a wizard hat on a highborn riding a dragon would be an awesome looking backup mage though

[WizzyWarlock]

Putting a wizard hat on a highborn riding a dragon would be an awesome looking backup mage though

I was actually thinking of doing that but with a Waywatcher/Scout Highborn. Having a wizard on the enemy side of the table on the first turn might turn out to be very good... though, with the randomness of the wizard hat, could also be rather useless.. Gotta love random dice!

[Malorian]

I'm a bit rusty, but don't the kindreds come out of your point total?

[Jericho]

Kindreds don't come out of your magic allowance, but the Spirit thingers (Spites? It's been too damn long since I played with my tree huggers) do count against it.

The exception to the normal rules is your BSB, which can take a magic banner and a spite (at least the 7th ed FAQ's used to confirm this... it might have changed in 8th). Annoyance of Netlings is always a classic on a BSB.

[Malorian]

Well then, that could be pretty cool

[Rosstifer]

I came 2nd in a 48 player Tournament without a Level 4. That was with Warriors, with the Disco Stu the Chaos Lord, so it's pretty different, my whole army was Warriors and Knights, so was very resilient to magic inherently. I had 2 Wizards, a level 2 with an extra Spell on Death, and a level 1 on Disc for Flickering Fire. Worked well.