Storm of Chaos: The Poll to end all polls

[Urgat]

It is possible for there to be some middle ground you know Some irrevocable damage to an are of the Old World that doesn't quite amount to 'Empire flattened' would be ok. Killing off characters is fine by me- it makes sense that war like hero's aren't going to survive every single battle they take part in.

The original idea was 4 great forces crushing the rest of the world, actually leading to the final victory of Chaos. That was the plan, no middle ground. Rick wanted it to end as the big end.

[woodster17]

The original idea was 4 great forces crushing the rest of the world, actually leading to the final victory of Chaos. That was the plan, no middle ground. Rick wanted it to end as the big end.

I meant in the mean time, not inevitably. It can be a gradual thing, not all happening at once like some massive implosion of daemons

[Urgat]

I meant in the mean time, not inevitably. It can be a gradual thing, not all happening at once like some massive implosion of daemons

It was all at once You got the 4 invasions, and they all converged wiping everything in the process, in one single big short victorious war. That was what Priestley had in mind. I feel like Don Quixote fighting windmills pal My point is: the original plan for the Chaos books would not have been what you have in mind.

[woodster17]

It was all at once You got the 4 invasions, and they all converged wiping everything in the process, in one single big short victorious war. That was what Priestley had in mind. I feel like Don Quixote fighting windmills pal My point is: the original plan for the Chaos books would not have been what you have in mind.

Ha I know what you mean, we're running rings round each other here I'm not disagreeing with you on the end point but that will obviously never happen as it would break the game (unless GW throw in the towel and can't be bothered anymore). What I was hoping for was scope for evolution of the background without a demonstrable breakdown of civilization in the old world (which an Archaon victory would have achieved).

[Craze_b0i]

Well if you don't like the 'frozen' setting you can always write your own account of 'what happens next'.

This is something I have been having a go at myself.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...e-of-warhammer

[MooseOnTheLoose]

And if the setting progressed, even more people and the ones complaining now that it doesn't, would come on here and complain about how can GW tell me my Elves have been driven out of their forest and live in empire farmers barns or Bretonnia is a burning wasteland and its peasants have become farmers in the empire and their knights inducted into various empire knights... and we are talking of less popular armies in "more insignificant location" compared to saying if the northern territories or the eastern territories of the empire fell to chaos/vampire. Or if the DE retook the shadowlands etc.

There would be far more wtf moments, more hate, more destroying of "what you liked to begin with", the story you bought into. Its why nothing advances in either system beyond some minor, insignificant things and eve then they are written in to have always been there. The story has been written and its been bought... changing the story isn't worth it and has far more risk then reward. The result, the past is far easier to expand upon e.g.: Horus Heresy then progressing the 40,000 year for example.

[woodster17]

And if the setting progressed, even more people and the ones complaining now that it doesn't, would come on here and complain about how can GW tell me my Elves have been driven out of their forest and live in empire farmers barns or Bretonnia is a burning wasteland and its peasants have become farmers in the empire and their knights inducted into various empire knights... and we are talking of less popular armies in "more insignificant location" compared to saying if the northern territories or the eastern territories of the empire fell to chaos/vampire. Or if the DE retook the shadowlands etc.

There would be far more wtf moments, more hate, more destroying of "what you liked to begin with", the story you bought into. Its why nothing advances in either system beyond some minor, insignificant things and eve then they are written in to have always been there. The story has been written and its been bought... changing the story isn't worth it and has far more risk then reward. The result, the past is far easier to expand upon e.g.: Horus Heresy then progressing the 40,000 year for example.

We're not talking catastrophic ruining and destruction of races setting progression, only slight things like 'oh look, that horde of Skaven has raised Quenelles, it's burning for the time being and Bretonnia is pissed enough to send a disastrous crusade in to the Blighted Marshes', not 'comet flattens Altdorf' crazy. Little things that would change the setting for a little while (and perhaps add a unit or two in different editions) to make it seem a little more dynamic. Just my feelings that it could make things more interesting as nations advance through the years.

[Athelassan]

If your army happens to be from Quenelles you'd be quite annoyed. The destruction of Wolfenburg and Hergig was bad enough. Do you recall the complaints when a story in WD indicated that Miragliano had been overrun by Skaven?

[woodster17]

If your army happens to be from Quenelles you'd be quite annoyed. The destruction of Wolfenburg and Hergig was bad enough. Do you recall the complaints when a story in WD indicated that Miragliano had been overrun by Skaven?

I remember that! It was somewhere around WD 267/8 when the Skaven were revamped in 6th edition I believe. Actually enjoyed the story and didn't get the complaints considering Tilea isn't a playable army. I didn't say Quenelles would be destroyed but if we had more storylines that suggested wars/invasions it would add some interest on my part. There doesn't even have to be city annihilation like Hergig, but it would be fairly cool if races fought with each other as editions changed. For example, in 8th there could be some consternation between Dwarves/Bretonnians over mines near the Grey Mountains which makes relations a bit frosty and adds some dynamism to the fluff. Perhaps they fight a couple of battles, nobody major dies but something happens which players are interested in. Maybe there is a novella or a few pages in a WD and some stores run it for a month or two. No background changes but some in game variation. Not asking for much! Nothing that would be enough to cause hundreds of *insert stereotypical non-hobbyist impression of Warhammer players* to turn up at Warhammer World with pitchforks calling for the Games Development guys to be burned to death.

[Craze_b0i]

Well another point that occurs to me is that some of the Black Library novels are set after SOC, which technically places them 'in the future'. Even the present day books are a future of sorts.

[Athelassan]

Even then, though, few of them have been allowed to develop or make permanent changes to the setting (this may be indicative of BL's role in relation to GW rather than anything else). Swords of the Empire is a reasonable example. Set very definitely in the aftermath of SoC and purporting to make impact on the setting (the author did say he was keen to "move the story forward"), the ending looks suspiciously similar to the status quo, except that (x) amount of death and mayhem has occurred in the meantime.

[Urgat]

If your army happens to be from Quenelles you'd be quite annoyed.

Well, you could decide that your army is now on a small scale herantry war to retake the Duché. It would actually add depth to its background, if you ask me.

[Craze_b0i]

Wow the voting is actually pretty close now, in the first week the poll was roughly 2 to 1 against.

This change suggests that hardcore post-every-day forum users are more disposed against, whereas the more casual irregular forum users are disposed in favour.

[Eternus]

I've said more than enough on this subject before, and though I never tire of discussing it, I won't repeat what has been said before. Suffice to say that I think it would be better with the Storm of Chaos. What will make or break it is what happens next...unless we're allowed to tweak the ending.

[Urgat]

Wow the voting is actually pretty close now, in the first week the poll was roughly 2 to 1 against.

This change suggests that hardcore post-every-day forum users are more disposed against, whereas the more casual irregular forum users are disposed in favour.

I wonder what I am, I haven't voted because I can't decide if we're better with or without.

[Craze_b0i]

I wonder what I am, I haven't voted because I can't decide if we're better with or without.

Well within either group there are obviously still people that think the other way. From your post-count I'd say you are one of the hardcore element.

[Urgat]

If only postcounts could be reset, i'd do it in an instant...

[woodster17]

I've made my opinions on my desire to see background advanced very clear so went for 'with'. Somewhat tempered by the well discussed fact that the ending to SoC was so utterly shoddy. However, the concept was a good one and the storylines thrown up before the ending (as well as in the build up) were interesting and well considered.

[Craze_b0i]

Slightly off-topic, I read somewhere, I think the Book of Unfinished Tales, that JRR Tolkien once started on a sequel to LOTR, he wrote about 2 pages before he stopped and decided against doing it.

[MooseOnTheLoose]

We're not talking catastrophic ruining and destruction of races setting progression, only slight things like 'oh look, that horde of Skaven has raised Quenelles, it's burning for the time being and Bretonnia is pissed enough to send a disastrous crusade in to the Blighted Marshes', not 'comet flattens Altdorf' crazy. Little things that would change the setting for a little while (and perhaps add a unit or two in different editions) to make it seem a little more dynamic. Just my feelings that it could make things more interesting as nations advance through the years.

But aren't we? We are suggesting meaningful larger changes too the story, not some back water town no one has heard of or non historical or truly meaningful section of land. The suggesting is very much alter the status quo and move forward. If we go with the actual gameplay the force of order crushed the whole advancement, game over, status quo arguably chaos couldn't muster a force as is. If we go with the written ending and remove the random status quo saving moments. The Northern Empire is quite literally a chaos waste with bands of chaos lingering without a leader, Orcs continuing fighting and destroying whats left of the Empire and the Vampires basically taking the whole eastern empire with the army they now have. The end result is well, the Empire is pretty much gone or anywhere that is left is only too be gone. 3 forces destroying everything they have.

The setting as is, just can't handle a proper push by the forces of order which are ultimately (HE, Dwarf, Empire and Brets) and there would really be so much outrage if they set it up where they could make a proper push e.g.: Ogre Kingdoms are paid so well and remain trust worthy to fight for the side of order. Wood Elves actually leave their forrest to save it in the long run by actually aiding the forces of order. Tomb Kings, hold nothing back and keep the VC stuck in prolonged war. Lizardmen would either have to full scale war and drive north upon the Dark Elves either by chance or in support/planning with the High Elves to keep the Dark Elves from joining in. Then you have to ultimately hope Skaven have too much in fighting to cripple someone from below. All this while ultimately hoping the Orcs/Goblins either get bored of there normal fights or have infighting.

As it stands now the forces of order just can't push forward. High Elves simply can't send armies too defend/assault in the old world with the Dark Elves at their doors. Dwarves can't leave their holds half empty to do so or Goblins and Skaven will over run them from below. That leaves Brets and Empire to do such a push, while still protecting from Orc waaghs, Skaven, Vampires and Beastmen. Even the best case scenario has TK removing the Vampire threat, WE the Beastmen. Ogres preoccupy the Orc. Dwarves hold off the Goblins/Skaven in old world holds/cities. High Elf and Lizardmen drive the DE way back, while Lizardmen have to worry about Clan Pestilence. Your at a spot where the Empire/Brets at best don't have enough to drive that far into the chaos wastes and barbarian lands. The reverse is far easier and is why their is so much in fighting (Skaven/Goblins/Orcs/Dark Elf/Chaos) and lack of alliances within them. Without the in fighting and personal goals, the forces of order would be wiped from the map already. If Goblins/Clan Skyre/Moulder and Orcs worked together all on the same page, bye bye Dwarves and Brets. Dark Elf and Clan Pestilence two sided attack on Lizardmen. Vampires beating or removing TK from helping elsewhere. Beastmen keeping WE in their forest. Chaos outbidding for the Ogre Kingdoms services. Then it would be only the Empire to defend themselves with zero help. Where are the High Elves you ask? waiting for the Dark Elves and sending their small contingents to help... but where this time?

It just comes down too at this point in the timeline is the fine line from destroying the whole story. The story we have all bought into and has proven good and worthwhile. Swinging anything of significance in either way begins a quick decline of Order or an even more head scratching how the heck did Order pull that off? Things people are even more vocal and outrage against is changing a good story.