Storm of Chaos: The Poll to end all polls

[Razakel]

I liked much of the campaign, and the premise it was built on - what if the next Chaos incursion wasn't some vague threat in the future, but actually happening now? Likewise with the introduction of Valten (and his exit) looked at what a Second Coming would actually entail - namely the threat of civil war, and the people he was meant to save wishing he would go away.

The insurmountable problem, however, was that it introduced forward momentum into material that can't, by definition, ever really go forwards. It's a little like soap operas - nothing truly final can ever happen to upset the status quo, else it would end the story.

Part of the reason it looked so ridiculous at the end is because of how GW has set up Chaos. They're this unstoppable grinding horde who show up every few centuries to burn and pillage, though they are defeated, the march of Chaos is always inevitable. They'll be back, bigger and badder than ever and eventually we won't be able to stop them. The relentlessness of it all gives me a headache, can't Chaos lose some ground? Just once or twice would be enough to relieve the intense feeling of boredom I get whenever someone talks to me about Chaos.

If GW made it so Chaos could actually lose, this wouldn't have been such a huge problem and the campaign could've been closed with a decisive Chaos defeat. Unfortunately things didn't quite go that way...

[Athelassan]

Yeah, I think there was a problem at the concept/implementation phase which kind of showed up the flaws in the system of a big narrative campaign. I suspect that those in charge of organising it were so keen on the idea of a big Chaos incursion steamrollering everything in its path that they overlooked the issue of whether everybody else would be. When the results started coming in it made a mockery of the system. It wasn't even an EoT-style pyrrhic victory, a results draw edged by the bad guys with the Imperium holding back the horde at great cost or whatever; Chaos got creamed and it was frustrating that the narrative wasn't reflecting what was happening on the tabletop.

Really, though, I think that, despite some of the rampant silliness in the ending, the problem lies in the lack of follow-up to it. I know that the setting is meant to be two minutes to midnight or whatever but with midnight clearly having been staved off for a while we could have had a bit more development of the themes and plot hooks that SoC threw up. The schism in the Church of Sigmar was a particularly juicy one that didn't go anywhere. I don't know why this was. I don't know if the change in direction had been planned before SoC or whether they just drew the wrong lessons from it.

[Craze_b0i]

It would be interesting to know why GW actually abandoned SOC fluff. Whether it was a backlash from the fans or whether it was the studio designers themselves who felt it had upset the balance too much.

[Grocklock]

Storm of magic was a great campgian in my eyes, I thought the build up to it was grand and when it hit the book was great with a great choice of armies to play. I had alot of fun playing the battles especially taking part in the final seige as well.
I do belive that there where some mistakes made in the fact that the armies of chaos kept advanceing dispite being beatten back. But they had an ending in mind which they wonted to protray and the way i saw it was that the battles would decide the final battle. Even though it was supposed to determine the battles on the way. but alas it didn't.

this next bit is speculation, (I belive they only had one out come thinking that the campain would not be so one sided. but they carried on with there path, non the which rubbed people the wrong way. Or did it.....)

Thinking about it chaos didn't make it to the city walls, they where stopped, so really it was true to the campain. as for the ending, I liked it, the arch lector lost his position within the council, Grimgor bested his opponent but this has already been covered by the orc book as to why he would do such a thing, In the orc army book may not be this one but the previous it says that Grimgor would leave the skaven to replenish so that he could return to do battle with them. So i ask you why kill a great advasarry, an orcs greatest deam is an unending war, the best way to do this is to beat your opponents but not completly distroy them.
As for Vulkan the guy made to fight chaos I thought his death was great the fact he was killed by the assassin in his sleep.

Did chaos win not really which is something i never get when people keep saying they won, as far as i know the city of the wolf still belongs to hte empire so that is vnot a victory, as for the fact that some of the other places changed ahnds i think this was good, from memory i can only remember one and that was the skaven getting some where.

But as the campain came to a close, this is where the true failing of SOC came in, the comunity, backlashed against gw and for years all you heard was that it was seen as a failure. So it seams they have decided to write it out of the history. but again the comunity being what it is, backlashed again.

In my eyes that is why gw does it, because it takes a lot of time and money to sort these things out and if all you get back is negativity then why bother.

To conclude isee it as the communities fult that SOC failed and not GW, but we just cannot admit it.

[Grimstonefire]

I think that perhaps people are right to look negatively at the very end, but I would suggest people focus more on the events immediately before, during and the place the warhammer world is in post SoC.

It is infinitely more interesting than the boring status quo we have now.

[sulla]

As for Vulkan the guy made to fight chaos I thought his death was great the fact he was killed by the assassin in his sleep.

I thought that was the worst part of the SoC. For the Skaven to kill off Valten really made no sense to me. There's no real gain for them. Leaving him alive makes the Empire weaker; he splits the Empire into two factions. It would have made far more sense to have Karl-Franz hire an assassin to kill him.

[Athelassan]

I'm not sure that one can be laid at the feet of SoC itself (or Gav Thorpe, who wrote the background). The circumstances surrounding Valten's death were left pretty murky: there was a shady meeting between senior Imperial figures shortly before the assassination, and the body disappeared before Huss could get to it. There was Skaven insignia left at the site of the murder, but then (in older background at least) the Skaven framed mutants for the murder of Mandred, so that's not conclusive.

Unfortunately the next edition of the Skaven book after the SoC baldly stated that it had been Sniktch who killed Valten, sucking a lot of the intrigue out of the situation. I don't know who made that decision, but I think it was a mistake.

[Urgat]

I thought that was the worst part of the SoC. For the Skaven to kill off Valten really made no sense to me. There's no real gain for them. Leaving him alive makes the Empire weaker; he splits the Empire into two factions. It would have made far more sense to have Karl-Franz hire an assassin to kill him.

Many people think that a skaven weapon laying there so conveniently on the scene of the crime is, in fact, way too obvious. Iirc the fluff doesn't say skavens killed him, the fluff only states he was found dead, with that so obviously obvious "proof" next to him. I'm not saying Karl Franz ordered it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the idea behind was that someone from the Empire did, and the skavens had nothing to do with it.

[TheDungen]

I'd have prefer if they had let Valten kill archon and then die from his wounds and then some chaos worshipper spirited away either archon's or valten's body (depending on how morbif the writer is) and have that body posseseed by balakor to avoid the punishment pof the gods. The world ahve weathered a storm but all they have is a either the avatar of sigmar or the lord of end times possessed by the most powerful dmeon prince ever. They've gone from bad to worse.

[Odin]

The insurmountable problem, however, was that it introduced forward momentum into material that can't, by definition, ever really go forwards. It's a little like soap operas - nothing truly final can ever happen to upset the status quo, else it would end the story.

Didn't stop Lord of the Rings!

But yeah, it's not what Warhammer needs, that's for sure. I'd have preferred they just kill off Archaon and a few other characters, instead of the nonsense they came up with. I think they've done a decent job of mostly erasing SoC from the background material.

[Shizzbam]

It started off great. Then GW ignored the results to suit themselves and created a terrible ending. As a devout Empire player, it was intensely frustrating to see the good guys hammer Chaos in the results and then see GW go "La la la not listening". Definitely better off as a storm-a-brewin'.

[MooseOnTheLoose]

The biggest issue in terms of having Chaos be the defender is two-fold. None of the good guys have the ability to do so fluff wise. Empire/Brets go north, Orcs come from the badlands, Skaven from below, Vampires from the east, result game over. Dwarf do anything and they are over run by goblins or skaven, game over. High Elf go full offensive on Dark Elves or assist full fledge against chaos, They grind to so few warriors they die off/Dark Elf take over. Lizardmen move north in full scale war, and temple cities are over run by looters, pirates, pestilence. Ultimately not only do the "bad" or "neutral we love to just fight" races outnumber those of the good significantly. They surround the the good guys, so any true large good guy push leaves them horribly exposed to another threat coupled in with the fact 2 of the good races are a dying race. SO it wouldn't be just re writing a bit of fluff or changing it up, you'd be talking about re writing everyones fluff. This isn't LoTR where there is an end game for good by destroying a ring. Its about surviving.

The second is, not only does the fluff set us up for this but so does the game play/unit entries and their design/fluff. The only bad guy army that one could consider to actually properly be able to defend much of anything would be Dark Elves. Evil armies are designed by their fluff to a significant degree. WoC, BoC, VC, OnG by no means could hold a castle in game play or in fluff the way HE, Empire or Dwarves could. Add in the fact when we look at not just fluff but design, the good guys have far more defensive style armies, with more ranged fire power compared to any bad guy, a result and a design of fluff and game play.

The only way I could see any form of good guy advance of any significance, would be to united entirely as one on a true world war. HE, Bret, Empire, Dwarf. Then they would have no chance without getting WE, Lizardmen on board. Plus I would argue they would still need the Ogre Kingdoms bought off, and Tomb Kings to pre occupy the VC with full scale war. HE and Lizardmen would have to push against Dark Elf and Skaven. Bret, Empire and Dwarf would have to push past OnG and BoC tribes to push truly north into chaos wastelands, while WE protect practically the whole Old World from Skaven, OnG, Beastmen raids or armies and best case Ogres and OnG get into a pissing match, while skaven clans fight each other as well. Ultimately just way too much to fall into place for the forces of order to truly make any head way, and none of them are willing to sacrifice there lands for the big picture.

Compare all that needs to fall in place for order compared to destruction. Chaos, we march on the empire! Oh empire has to still defend against, VC, OnG, Skaven, BoC and our invasion, replace Chaos fir whatever bad guy and its easy. Is easy cause thats what is established, and not just in one book, all books. To really change this and not piss off 100x the amount of people, you'd need an amazing writer and an amazing idea/story that could be supported. Personally its why I think the better thing to do is books such as Lustria. Don't look for "massive global campaigns". Use past/current engagements for players to play out to release new models, stories etc. The only problem is its more of a 2 race thing with others "sorta finding ways to be there". However something like a campaign around invading HE, you could set it around, Dark Elf invasions, Grom's invasion and Chaos invasions. Problem is your still stuck with 4 races, but in turn a year or two later and make a book around border princes or something which includes Bret, Empire, OnG, TK etc. I don't expect either to be honest.

[TheDungen]

The empire doesnt have the strenght fluff wise to expand? They placed a colony in the new world and a colony on albion. I'd say they're growing in power, if chaos was reeling from the defeat of archon they coukd propably capture a few towns in southern norsca.

[Craze_b0i]

The empire doesnt have the strenght fluff wise to expand? They placed a colony in the new world and a colony on albion. I'd say they're growing in power, if chaos was reeling from the defeat of archon they coukd propably capture a few towns in southern norsca.

Those happened when they had less problems. If you look at the last 10 years of Empire timeline (2511-2521) they have been invaded virtually every year and each time they narrowly avoided defeat but at great cost to themselves.

And if you count SOC as well the aftermath would be spent hunting the various chaos warbands that had scattered across the land, creating a ring of steel to counter the main force at Brass Keep, rebuilding the davastated northern provinces, keeping a watching guard on Sylvania, defending against Waaagh Grimgor that is running amok in the heart of The Empire...

For better or worse the writers have made a situation where the good guys are fighting just to survive one day to the next. Even without SOC you would have to advance the timeline forawrd some years before Empire could think about going over onto the offensive... and even that would assume that nothing else bad happens in the meantime.

[blackcherry]

Oh boy...

I prefer it with it in, as it was the conclusion (even if the results were mixed) of a few years of escalating background buildup. Plus, it allowed the RPG at the time to explore a post storm of chaos empire, which was cool.

Shame they chickend out, but perfectly understandable.

[TheDungen]

then make it progress a few years it not like they havent done that before

and i still want belakor possessing either valten or archon. =P

[chriscrowing]

It started off great. Then GW ignored the results to suit themselves and created a terrible ending. As a devout Empire player, it was intensely frustrating to see the good guys hammer Chaos in the results and then see GW go "La la la not listening". Definfately better off as a storm-a-brewin'.

I remember it similarly. The final fluff battle reports seemed really contrived to make 'every race gets involved, even if it made sense for them to sit aside and see where the dust settled.' Yawn.

The results indicated a decisive Empire victory - which could have led to a few interesting after-elements going forward.

If Valten survived, there is a potentiual schism in the Empire.
The Chaos horde was HUGE, so the north of the Empire would
There could have been a plot element where Archaon's hubris led to the powers removing their favour causing his fall, perhaps more inm favour of a new player with a more... insidious design.

So a decisive Empire win could actually result in a schismed Empire, scattered chaos warbands all across the north and a new chaos power rising, INSIDE the Empire's boundaries. At the same time, Brettonia is feeling feisty, theres an Ork horde coming into the south, the Skaven are up to something....

It leaves the central setting of the Old World in a considerably more fractious, darker place than before, a few seconds closer to midnight - that's INTERESTING.

The contrived 'draw' resulting in a deus ex return to the status quo was pretty lame, all things considered.


The concept of Chaos losing IS interesting but unworkable - you cant attack the North and close off the warp gates, and attacking the beastmen & cultist tribes in the wastes is like attacking Russia in autumn with clothing and provisions for a fortnights campaign...

[blackseven]

The setting is much poorer for ignoring SoC. WHFB is now timeline locked like 40k with no good reason.

I disliked the ending of SoC (rationalizations defending Grimgor notwithstanding), and I REALLY hated that the story didn't reflect the fact that Chaos got POUNDED on the tabletop. Also, what they did with the Slayer King was unforgivable. How insulting.

Bohsenfels was awesome - it forced the writers to change their "every stronghold was scripted to fall" stance.

But mainly I'm sore because GW timelocked the story.

[Craze_b0i]

Bohsenfels?

[Athelassan]

Bohsenfels was one of the battle locations (a fortress near the border) which defending players kept assigning victories, preventing it from falling long after all the other defence points in the area had been timed out or been overrun. Eventually it was ruled that Archaon abandoned the siege (and executed the commanding general for incompetence).

Although even that last point left a slightly sour taste in the mouth for some (the SoC forums were not a happy place) - along the lines of "even when we win it's still Chaos who gets to kill everybody".