Storm of Chaos: The Poll to end all polls

[Athelassan]

Thanks for your input, Gav, that was interesting to read.

I kind of agree, also, that not killing off some characters is a mistake. You did kill some before (Azhag), and, well, the hobby didn't crumble, nor did the greenskin players riot (well I didn't, at least ). Azhag's still out there as a SC with one of the best minis in the range, to boot. I think the studio might overestimate the reaction of the hobbyists in face of such things. It's too frivolous.

I think Azhag is a false comparison. I don't think there was ever a period when Azhag was alive in the "current" setting. He was created as a historical character (which happened a couple of times in army books back in the day), just from the more recent past. So killing Azhag was never going to spark a riot because his death was a fait accompli on character creation.

Better examples would be Marius Leitdorf or Volkmar. The former was not a popular choice to kill off, though, and the latter didn't stick (I recall being horrified when it happened). An attempt was made to kill Kouran off at one point, too; I think that was retconned, or at least never spoken of again. There are a couple of allied problems, really. Firstly, people generally don't like change anyway. Secondly, they don't like characters they're using in their army being killed when they've invested money into them as it somehow makes them less "legitimate"; thirdly, it's rare that a character is given a proper send-off. Often it feels a bit desultory and that's very disappointing. That was certainly the case with Leitdorf and Kouran, and to an extent with Volkmar as well. Recall too that a couple of characters had already been killed off in 40K to a very mixed reaction. Tycho was done reasonably well, but I never heard anybody enthuse about what happened to Eldrad Ulthran.

Also, speaking entirely for myself, I'd have been rather annoyed/upset had Middenheim got the chop, especially if it were done by author fiat as it were rather than as the result of the campaign. Ever got a Dwarf player onto the subject of the Dwarfs being every other faction's punching bag? Of course the players could live with it - it's only a game, after all. But that doesn't mean they'd like it.

[Shadey]

For me part of the excitement was the thought of being able to effect the timeline. Even as a footnote it would have been fun to be official in any capacity.

If I were to agree that the background was better off without it (which I am not sure I would anyway despite it's problems), I still think the hobby is the richer for it. Yeah the end wasn't great, but how many of you had had a net negative experience? I had a helluva time during it and I would do it again. I think the hobby benefited, even if only as a learning experience.

So these hypothetical sandbox narrative campaigns, would they essentially be separate from the main timeline with players having little to no effect on the official background?

[Truthiness]

I never heard anybody enthuse about what happened to Eldrad Ulthran.

I actually put down 40k for a while after that. As an Eldar player at the time, Eldrad was one of my favorite characters. I would have been shocked had Eldrad died in the EoT campaign, but I would have been ok with it if it had been tied to the actual results. Instead the Eldar dominate the webway and are rewarded by being the only ones that lose a character. It was the same thing with the Storm of Chaos. I wasn't even an Empire player, but the whole Valten progression pissed me off. Valten was probably the only character amongst all the Empire special characters that I've ever liked. The models for him were great, especially at the the time. Order won that campaign, and pretty convincingly at that. But instead of killing off a Destruction character, GW kills off the Order character. Hell, not only is the character dead, he doesn't even have rules anymore.

I think Valten and Eldrad are symbolic of the problem these world wide campaigns had: the end result is already determined before the campaign even starts. GW advertised these campaigns as a way for players to influence the progression of the story. Instead, when the campaigns ended, GW seemed to have a fixed result in mind and the promise of influencing the story felt like a big lie. I, for one, wish GW had been bolder. If Chaos had legitimately won, allow Middenheim to be sacked. With an Order victory, Archaon should have been killed off or spawned. He may have been the prophetized "Lord of the End Times," but prophesies can be interpreted incorrectly. Give him the Marius Leitdorf treatment. People can continue to use him in games even though he's dead. Meanwhile start working on the background for a new Chaos Warlord that will work toward another great Chaos invasion.

[Shadey]

Die hard devotee of the Dark Gods here, but I have to admit poetically it would have made sense if Archaon died.

On the other hand, winning, even convincingly doesn't exempt you from loss and sacrifice. It wasn't a reward for winning or loosing, it was purely a concession to plot and the whole noble sacrifice thing, there was poetry in that too. Maybe it was even because they did win, they don't have to get everything their way.

I have no problem with them killing Valten, though I think Archaon should probably have followed him, or at least been spawn-ified though that has more to do with his Gods and their followers Vader like tolerance for failure.

[Eternus]

To be fair to Gav, the Loremasters Journal which reported day by day what was happening is full to bursting with hints about where the forces of Chaos should have been focussing their efforts, or that's how I read it at least. If there had been a way to better direct the forces doing the fighting, things might have been different.

If I were to run the whole show over again I might consider one thing in particular - having the special characters that were driving the story actually directing the efforts of the players by issuing orders through the web site. For example, the Chaos advance is stalling because the attacks are becoming unfocussed, but a key victory at say, Hoffnung, will break the Empire line and allow Chaos to advance, so the order from Archaon gets issued via the website 'Raze Hoffnung to the ground!'

Just an idea to keep the plot moving in the predestined direction, so when it gets where it's going, it doesn't seem like it shouldn't have.

[MOMUS]

To be fair to Gav, the Loremasters Journal which reported day by day what was happening is full to bursting with hints about where the forces of Chaos should have been focussing their efforts, or that's how I read it at least. If there had been a way to better direct the forces doing the fighting, things might have been different.

If I were to run the whole show over again I might consider one thing in particular - having the special characters that were driving the story actually directing the efforts of the players by issuing orders through the web site. For example, the Chaos advance is stalling because the attacks are becoming unfocussed, but a key victory at say, Hoffnung, will break the Empire line and allow Chaos to advance, so the order from Archaon gets issued via the website 'Raze Hoffnung to the ground!'

Just an idea to keep the plot moving in the predestined direction, so when it gets where it's going, it doesn't seem like it shouldn't have.

I think thats a great idea....how about:

A MOMUS PRODUCTION


































PRESENTED BY ETERNUS






































BROUGHT TO YOU BY WARSEER








































STORM OF CHAOS 2!
Now with real good ending (probably)

[Eternus]

I have wondered whether a campaign could be run on the site by posting a thread for each major battle, like the seige of a city, or the invasion of an Empire province, giving background and guidance on forces, plus any special rules, and collect the results via a poll in the thread to determine who is winning/has won.

[woodster17]

Way back some pages with my original thoughts I failed to mention Volkmar, where as during the campaign itself when he reappeared I was like 'wtf'. The original battle report in WD between Archaon and Volkmar was excellent (as was the whole of that Chaos release, loved it). Then again, those were the days when WD was really worth buying. It does explicitly state that Volkmar died only to be 'resurrected' Christ like which seems utterly ridiculous to me. Volkmar's death struck me as noble in it's intentions, then to appear again and get rid of Mannfred like some sort of pop-up fixit character irked me aswell.

[Urgat]

Thanks for your input, Gav, that was interesting to read.


I think Azhag is a false comparison. I don't think there was ever a period when Azhag was alive in the "current" setting. He was created as a historical character (which happened a couple of times in army books back in the day), just from the more recent past.

Gorbad is like that, but Azhag was "killed" during a battle report in White Dwarf. He was alive originally.

Secondly, they don't like characters they're using in their army being killed when they've invested money into them as it somehow makes them less "legitimate";

The people who use SC generally don't care ( I said "generally". If you're not like that, you're not in the "generally", so spare me). All they ask for is for them to kick ass. One is not taking Teclis because Teclis fits his army's fluff. One would still take Teclis if he was now dead in the fluff (dead in the fluff. Now that brings an amusing mental picture if you take it literally).

Also, speaking entirely for myself, I'd have been rather annoyed/upset had Middenheim got the chop, especially if it were done by author fiat as it were rather than as the result of the campaign. Ever got a Dwarf player onto the subject of the Dwarfs being every other faction's punching bag? Of course the players could live with it - it's only a game, after all. But that doesn't mean they'd like it.

That doesn't even compare. The fluff for the Dwarfs is a long list of Karaks lost, and never gained back again. The Empire sometimes get a city sacked, and that city is magically back to its feet two years later.

[Eternus]

That doesn't even compare. The fluff for the Dwarfs is a long list of Karaks lost, and never gained back again. The Empire sometimes get a city sacked, and that city is magically back to its feet two years later.

Correction, never fell over to start with, the SoC doesn't happen till next year remember.

[Urgat]

Yeah well other cities got sacked before the SoC . Nuln routinely gets it for instance. Heck, Middenheim being sacked before (by Grom) is now part of the fluff.

[MOMUS]

I have wondered whether a campaign could be run on the site by posting a thread for each major battle, like the seige of a city, or the invasion of an Empire province, giving background and guidance on forces, plus any special rules, and collect the results via a poll in the thread to determine who is winning/has won.

Surely if you were to do something like that, you would appoint army generals (people with large amounts of point who also play regularly) they would play agames and secretly PM you results, you would then post up in fluff form what is happening where and when, write hints etc.
That way the main forces are constantly developing and anyone else can join in by sending you battle summaries, these other players results would pool together and determine the next big games played by the generals and so on.

[The bearded one]

Ever got a Dwarf player onto the subject of the Dwarfs being every other faction's punching bag? Of course the players could live with it - it's only a game, after all. But that doesn't mean they'd like it.

* grumble, mutter, complain *

[MOMUS]

. Ever got a Dwarf player onto the subject of the Dwarfs being every other faction's punching bag? Of course the players could live with it - it's only a game, after all. But that doesn't mean they'd like it.

* grumble, mutter, complain *

Isnt that why they made chaos dwarves so amazingly awsome?

Ogre player: So you fancied trying your luck again eh stuntie?

Dwarf player: These aren't my dwarves, these are my chaos dwarves ...*starts deploying*

Ogre player: whats this new thingy?

Dwarf player: Oh its like a dwarf fire thrower....



Anyway OT, wouldnt the next step after the SoC be for every chaos captain wannabe to challenge Archaon? I would like a new baddie to rally the scattered remnants of monsters and Archaon to roll out of brass keep to have a big mash up while the empire run away from the undead.

[Athelassan]

Gorbad is like that, but Azhag was "killed" during a battle report in White Dwarf. He was alive originally.

Does Azhag predate the 4th edition O&G army book? As far as I'm aware that was his first mention (he didn't have a miniature till quite a bit later), and in that book his "final defeat" is mentioned and that the Crown of Sorcery was taken by the Grand Theogonist. His death is not outright stated but implied, and the whole character background is written in the past tense.

The battle report may not mean much. Several special characters were unofficially killed in battle reports back in the day and that wasn't carried over. Morglum Necksnapper was killed twice; Ungrim Ironfist was turned into a Chaos spawn; Gorfang Rotgut and Astragoth were both "killed" in the WD narrative campaign, as was Marius Leitdorf, and none of those stuck. That was during the period when the WD editors at least tried to pretend that the battle reports weren't fixed.

[Athelassan]

Gorbad is like that, but Azhag was "killed" during a battle report in White Dwarf. He was alive originally.

Does Azhag predate the 4th edition O&G army book? As far as I'm aware that was his first mention (he didn't have a miniature till quite a bit later), and in that book his "final defeat" is mentioned and that the Crown of Sorcery was taken by the Grand Theogonist. His death is not outright stated but implied, and the whole character background is written in the past tense.

The battle report may not mean much. Several special characters were unofficially killed in battle reports back in the day and that wasn't carried over. Morglum Necksnapper was killed twice; Ungrim Ironfist was turned into a Chaos spawn; Gorfang Rotgut and Astragoth were both "killed" in the WD narrative campaign, as was Marius Leitdorf, and none of those stuck. That was during the period when the WD editors at least tried to pretend that the battle reports weren't fixed.

[Truthiness]

On the other hand, winning, even convincingly doesn't exempt you from loss and sacrifice. It wasn't a reward for winning or loosing, it was purely a concession to plot and the whole noble sacrifice thing, there was poetry in that too. Maybe it was even because they did win, they don't have to get everything their way.

I have no problem with them killing Valten, though I think Archaon should probably have followed him, or at least been spawn-ified though that has more to do with his Gods and their followers Vader like tolerance for failure.

Oh I didn't mean to say that winning automatically keeps all your characters. The whole heroic sacrifice thing can work well and I'm all for pretty much anything that advances the story. My complaint was that the story did not reflect the end results of either campaign. The Eldar were the ONLY ones to lose a special character in the EoT campaign. The Empire and the Dwarfs were the ONLY ones to lose special characters in the Storm of Chaos campaign (and man was that Slayer King storyline lame). If Eldrad had died bringing down a Chaos baddie or Valten had died killing Archaon, that would reflect the result of the campaign and still reflect the need for heroic sacrifice. Instead Eldrad gets sucked into nothing, the Slayer King retakes the slayer vow after his son's death frees him of it, and Valten get an assassin blade to the chest.

[Skopey]

wasn't azhag the card wyvern in the 4th edition starter? or am i just remembering something else?

[Athelassan]

That was the shaman, I think (never named as a special character but clearly meant to be Grom's buddy Blacktooth).

[Skopey]

yeah your right i remember the staff covered in feathers or furs now