Why All The Hate For The Lion? PLEASE USE SPOILERS! :)

[Sqallum]

Hi! I, while trawling through threads of the Horus Heresy and the DA and the Lion, frequently here is a egotistical, paranoid, two-faced idiot and he is appalling at reading character! I have read Descent Of Angels, and though he WAS a bit of a tool for sending back Luther to control CALIBAN, is there anymore instances of his idiocy? I know he gets duped by Perturabo....but still... BTW, I have not finished Fallen Angels, I know about Perturabo through an Amazon extrace Please, use spoilers
Sqallum

[Iron_Lord]

Hi! I, while trawling through threads of the Horus Heresy and the DA and the Lion, frequently here is a egotistical, paranoid, two-faced idiot and he is appalling at reading character! I have read Descent Of Angels, and though he WAS a bit of a tool for sending back Luther to control CALIBAN, is there anymore instances of his idiocy? I know he gets duped by Perturabo....but still... BTW, I have not finished Fallen Angels, I know about Perturabo through an Amazon extrace Please, use spoilers
Sqallum

In the short story The Lion, in The Primarchs he:

regards the idea of an Imperium without the Emperor as Wrong- he would rather everything collapse than that someone like Guilliman take over after the Emperor and Horus kill each other.

He's also under the mistaken impression that the Iron Hands are one of the Traitor Legions.

[ryng_sting]

I like the current portrayal of the Lion - a Loyalist, but with major, jagged flaws, few of which he actually seems to be aware of.

[Sqallum]

How dcanhe think the Iron Hands are traitors? Does he show sadness over the death of the utter BEAST Ferrus Manus
Sqallum

[Brothergrimm]

In the first two books the Lion comes of as a robot and a bit of a tool. It felt to me like nobody understood how to write El,jonson.

A-DB saved the Lion Imho and the new gav thorpe story looks pretty god.

[CutThroatRazor]

It felt to me like nobody understood how to write El,jonson.

This.

Dark Angels were my first army. I would like for them to be my favorite but sadly, they are not. I like the idea of El'jonson being raised in the wild and then becoming a "warrior knight". I love the ideas of knights and the artwork for the Lion is amazing.

But...my problems are first and foremost his name. It is horrible. I know that some will argue and others will name primarchs with worse names but I despise his name. Second, he is boring. Nothing stands out. No wings, mongul theme, invisibility, nothing that really sets him apart or makes him stand out. The same can be said about Guilliman and Dorn but they have way better backgrounds.

I think that someone needs to sit down and really focus on what the Lion stands for, what he is trying or going to accomplish and give us some insight on who he is.

These are just my opinions and not very good ones at that. Have not read Decent of Angels or Fallen Angels because of all the hate.

...this post could have just said He is Boring!

[Lord-Caerolion]

... You haven't read Savage Weapons, have you, CutThroatRazor? That's definitely my favourite portrayal of the Lion yet.

[CutThroatRazor]

... You haven't read Savage Weapons, have you, CutThroatRazor? That's definitely my favourite portrayal of the Lion yet.

no. i feel bad for not being up to date. i have the da codex (angels of death, 3rd ed and 4th ed) and i have read alot of short stories and white dwarfs that had the DA in them. i just havent read anything that peaked my interest in the Lion. i will take a look at ur suggestion and maybe i will change my mind. like i said before, they were my first army...i would love to love them again lol.

[ryng_sting]

He's named after the poet Lionel Johnson, author of...'The Dark Angel'.

[CutThroatRazor]

He's named after the poet Lionel Johnson, author of...'The Dark Angel'.

I know and Lionel Jonson, Lion Jonson or Jonson "The Lion" would be fine. I personally just dont like El'Jonson. I dont know why. I just dont. Its a personal thing. Not that I have a personal vendetta against "El" anything. I mean El Paso, Tx. doesnt bother me. HAHA, I just dont like his name. I just call him "The Lion".

[narrativium]

The books tend to call him 'The Lion' too. The 'El' thing is explained as 'son of', which I think is fair play. My name begins "O'", presumed to be short for "of" as an Irish surname, so it's not ridiculous to me at all - but, apostrophes tend to be abused horribly in fantasy fiction for names, so I can see why it might annoy.

I don't think the Lion is an idiot for thinking

the Iron Hands were potentially traitors

, any more than I think Guilliman was an idiot for

devising strategies in case his Ultramarines had to fight warriors of the Salamanders

. The simple truth is: you know more than the Primarchs do. You know who is friend and who is foe. But the Primarchs never anticipated the Horus Heresy, so now

you see the Lion's paranoia, and Guilliman's anticipation, to confront the traitors of Isstvan V, whichever Legion they turn out to be

.

The Lion is lord of a Legion of knightly Space Marines, and there are many virtues about that ideal, but in contrast he's also lord of an order who keep immense secrets. Information is power, and the Dark Angels guard their information very closely. The best I can determine at the moment is that the Lion is walking a very fine line between loyalty and defiance to the Emperor. Caliban is a dark world of secrets and the Lion means to protect it, even if it means learning about the warp and its dangers, and he must do secretly or end up like Magnus.

(By the way, Sqallum, if you're going to start a thread asking people to use spoiler tags, respond to those spoilers in spoiler tags yourself!)

[Sqallum]

Ah, but I am stupid - I have not yet read Fallen Angels (but its fine, spoil it for me - no joke), and I....do not know how to use spoilers
Sqallum

[narrativium]

If you hit the 'Go Advanced' button under the 'Quick Reply' text box at the bottom of the screen, there's a spoiler button which adds a tag before and after the bit you want hidden. Once you've seen it you'll know how it's typed for when you want to Quick Reply. It's pretty simple.

[Brothergrimm]

As far as the name goes I'd like to see Lion El;jonson be the high gothic translation of the calabanite Lynn Elgoson a or whatever his name was before it changed after the RT era.

[narrativium]

I suspect we won't.

I think it'd be hilarious to see the scene when a Dark Angel and an Iron Hand first met.
'So, what's your primarch's name?'
'Lion El'Jonson.'
'Kinda goofy, isn't it?'
'It means 'The Lion, the son of the forest' on Caliban. Why, what's your primarch called?'
'Ferrus Manus. It means.... Yeah, ok, forget I said anything.'

A lot of the primarchs' names are goofy. Lion El'Jonson is not the worst name of the batch. Sanguinius, Angron, Alpharius, Ferrus Manus, to some extent Mortarion and Corax, are much goofier. Live with it.

[CutThroatRazor]

I think it'd be hilarious to see the scene when a Dark Angel and an Iron Hand first met.
'So, what's your primarch's name?'
'Lion El'Jonson.'
'Kinda goofy, isn't it?'
'It means 'The Lion, the son of the forest' on Caliban. Why, what's your primarch called?'
'Ferrus Manus. It means.... Yeah, ok, forget I said anything.'

A lot of the primarchs' names are goofy.

:Thumbs up: lol

[Londinium]

I suspect we won't.

I think it'd be hilarious to see the scene when a Dark Angel and an Iron Hand first met.
'So, what's your primarch's name?'
'Lion El'Jonson.'
'Kinda goofy, isn't it?'
'It means 'The Lion, the son of the forest' on Caliban. Why, what's your primarch called?'
'Ferrus Manus. It means.... Yeah, ok, forget I said anything.'

A lot of the primarchs' names are goofy. Lion El'Jonson is not the worst name of the batch. Sanguinius, Angron, Alpharius, Ferrus Manus, to some extent Mortarion and Corax, are much goofier. Live with it.

I really hope that Angrons 'name' gets retconned to being the name he was given by the slavers that used him in their gladiator battles and that he can't remember (or never had) his proper name. It'd fit really nicely and get rid of one of the stupidest of a whole bunch of stupid names made up back when GW wasn't as serious as they are now. Unfortunately others such as Ferrus Manus are harder to fix. For what it's worth I actually think Sanguinius, Alpharius and Mortation work just fine and Lion El Johnson is practically brilliant compared to the absurdity of 'Angron'.

[Hendarion]

The names aren't worse or better than "The Amazing Spider-Man", "Batman" or "Mr. Fantastic". They are invented to fit the legions.
Alpha(rius) (if you would name Guilliman accordingly, he'd be either Omecron or Ultraman - Ultramar... *cough*)
Ferrus Manus (Ferrum=Iron in Latin, Manus=Hands [so says google translate, don't beat me on it])
Sanguinius (Saint)
Angron (angry)
Russ (dunno whats the real intention here, but it makes me think of cold and "cruel" Russia)
...
So dunno, I wouldn't make a fuzz for these names, I see them basically as left-overs from a more comic-like period of 40k which was full of jokes and irony.

[madd0ct0r]

Sanguinius come from Sanguine meaning 'cool headed/ unemotional' and also 'bloody'. Angron is a bit silly.

i like the Lion's name, just wish his character was a little more fleshed out.

[Hendarion]

Sanguine comes from cool headed? Bloody from French, yes. And sanguineum from latin for blood. And imo it is related to "saint" aswell. Dunno where the cool headed comes from, especially when thinking of the Death Company, it doesn't really fit.