Why do people say the Tau aren't 'good'?

[seven324]

First off I'd like to say that I'm not saying the Tau are perfect and have no flaws and are the nicest guys ever. Like everyone else, they are out to rule the galaxy.

I have seen many times people say the Tau have a 'join or die' mentality, or that something is controlling the Tau and they are therefore just slaves to a higher purpose or the Ethereals, or that they have no free-will as such (e.g being 'forced' into a caste and not being allowed to do what they want to do)

There has been no time that i have seen (in the 8 years since i started W40K) that suggests this at all. They didn't kill the Vespid when they refused, and several other races are only trading with them instead of being an actual part of the Empire. The only things i can think of that even slightly suggests this would be things such as the Dawn of War games, but in those times it is someone who is already their enemy refusing to join.

Nothing suggests there is anything controlling the Tau (such as pheremones) other than random Imperial Speculation because they refuse to believe the Tau would just obey.

The Tau are the most 'good' out of all the races from what i can see. Can anyone explain if i am missing something?

[Lionsprey]

my tau fluff is a bit rusty but if i remember correctly
the whole pheromone thing was validated in Xenology with strong hints towards something like that
and something about the vespids helmets actually being made to mind control can't remember if that was a fan theory or something though.

[Veteran Sergeant]

While Xenology can't be counted as an empirical source in terms of evidence since it is just the speculation of a single man, there are definitely signs that the Ethereals use some kind of mind control on the other members of the Tau. This is most clearly evidenced by the sudden behavior swings of Tau military forces in the even that Ethereals are killed. Either that, or I guess evidence that the Tau Fire Caste are completely unstable emotionally and mentally, lol.

As far as "good" or bad", I don't think there's any such thing in 40K. I mean, you have definite "evil" in 40K with Chaos. But, none of the other factions are altruistic or understanding. Ultimately the Tau are just as much inhabiting a moral gray area as the Imperium is. They just seem a little bit friendlier and understanding on the surface because they aren't so vehemently xenophobic like the Imperium is. However, that doesn't make them "good". Just makes them different. Their society is just as oppressive as the Imperium's. It's just less brutal and in-your-face about it.

[seven324]

While Xenology can't be counted as an empirical source in terms of evidence since it is just the speculation of a single man, there are definitely signs that the Ethereals use some kind of mind control on the other members of the Tau. This is most clearly evidenced by the sudden behavior swings of Tau military forces in the even that Ethereals are killed. Either that, or I guess evidence that the Tau Fire Caste are completely unstable emotionally and mentally, lol.

As far as "good" or bad", I don't think there's any such thing in 40K. I mean, you have definite "evil" in 40K with Chaos. But, none of the other factions are altruistic or understanding. Ultimately the Tau are just as much inhabiting a moral gray area as the Imperium is. They just seem a little bit friendlier and understanding on the surface because they aren't so vehemently xenophobic like the Imperium is. However, that doesn't make them "good". Just makes them different. Their society is just as oppressive as the Imperium's. It's just less brutal and in-your-face about it.

What about their society is oppressive? I haven't seen anything to suggest it is anything like the Imperium, or bad at all.

The thing about them acting different when an Ethereal is killed can be explained - the Tau are utterly loyal to them and the Greater Good, seeing one of their highly respected leaders die infront of them would obviously make them act different for a while. Tau aren't in range of an Ethereal at all times.

my tau fluff is a bit rusty but if i remember correctly
the whole pheromone thing was validated in Xenology with strong hints towards something like that
and something about the vespids helmets actually being made to mind control can't remember if that was a fan theory or something though.

Xenology is not a trustable source really. It gets several things wrong, and suggets that the organ looked similar to something in another specimen which suggested some sort of tampering. The Codex suggests it could be Pheremones or some sort of psychic control, which shows they really have no idea at all. As for the Vespid, that is again Imperial speculation. The helmets are for communications - they couldn't understand each other at first, and if they can't understand each other, then obviously it wouldn't have worked out.

[Lord-Caerolion]

Well, they did kinda mind-control the Vespid with those Communion Helms of theirs. They didn't kill the Vespid, they just made the Vespid see the Ethereals as their queens, and to obey them accordingly. So yes, when a race says they've developed a means of communicating with a race, with the (supposed) intention of opening a dialogue between the two races to allow for diplomacy, but instead create devices that brainwash the wearer into becoming your slave, that's underhanded to say the least.

I've never really bought into the whole pheremone thing though, although I do like the rest of Xenology. It just makes no sense that the Tau need to be breathing in pheremone-laced air to not begin reverting back to the Mont'au. After all, I'm fairly sure they don't depend on the Ethereals that much, and O'Shovah managed to kill his Ethereals, something I'd assume would be impossible with brain-washing pheremones coming off him constantly.
No, in my mind, they're simply heavily indoctrinated, and the Ethereals are incredibly charismatic. While there might be a small degree of pheremones helping with it, I could accept, but they'd only help, not make semi-zombies.

Also, what did Xenology get wrong? They gave the Kroot a nose (a race second only to the Tyranids in its variety of differing adaptions), and the Ethereal has feet (in a race where only a few hundred years ago, one Caste had wings. Something as minor as proto-hooves can easily be explained as one of the many minor physical differences between the various Castes.)

[totgeboren]

I actually agree with the OP. I think many people have a hard time fitting in a 'good' faction in the 40k universe, because the perceived theme of the universe is that everyone is just a different shade of bad guy.
Me being an old vet can understand this position, and I felt they didn't really fit in with the rest of the setting for a long time. However, after reading especially their BFG articles and rules, I must say I really enjoy their somewhat naive outlook on life, and I think they enrich the 40k universe much much more than say the Necrons or Dark Eldar (whom are also recent additions in comparison with the basic RT setting. Or, all Eldar were pirates back then, but whatever). That is not dismissing the Necrons or DE, but a conflict between the Imperium and the Necrons or DE is not much different from the point of view of the human fighters to the Imperium fighting Orks or Nids.
It's just "The enemy will kill us if we don't kill them. End of story". With the Tau, it's not so clear cut.

[seven324]

Well, they did kinda mind-control the Vespid with those Communion Helms of theirs. They didn't kill the Vespid, they just made the Vespid see the Ethereals as their queens, and to obey them accordingly. So yes, when a race says they've developed a means of communicating with a race, with the (supposed) intention of opening a dialogue between the two races to allow for diplomacy, but instead create devices that brainwash the wearer into becoming your slave, that's underhanded to say the least.

I've never really bought into the whole pheremone thing though, although I do like the rest of Xenology. It just makes no sense that the Tau need to be breathing in pheremone-laced air to not begin reverting back to the Mont'au. After all, I'm fairly sure they don't depend on the Ethereals that much, and O'Shovah managed to kill his Ethereals, something I'd assume would be impossible with brain-washing pheremones coming off him constantly.
No, in my mind, they're simply heavily indoctrinated, and the Ethereals are incredibly charismatic. While there might be a small degree of pheremones helping with it, I could accept, but they'd only help, not make semi-zombies.

Also, what did Xenology get wrong? They gave the Kroot a nose (a race second only to the Tyranids in its variety of differing adaptions), and the Ethereal has feet (in a race where only a few hundred years ago, one Caste had wings. Something as minor as proto-hooves can easily be explained as one of the many minor physical differences between the various Castes.)

Where has anywhere said that the Vespid see the Ethereals as their Queens? The Codex does not state this, and the Codex even says there is no evidence of the Communion Helms being a form of mind control.

As for mistakes in Xenology - The Kroot has a Nose, Feathers, Three fingers instead of four, and i remember someone saying it had a tail. It is possible that this is because of how the Kroot evolve, but there is no indication of this. If it was meant to be different from a normal Kroot, there would of been some sort of indication to explain these things (E.g they would of said there appears to be some variation from a standard Kroot in this specimen)

The Ethereal having a diamond shaped organ in her head and the feet are wrong. Why would the Female ones have these, and not the male? It makes no sense considering they live in the same environment. They aren't really minor differences.

[Bonzai]

Good and evil really dont apply well to the 40k universe. No one is truly evil or good. Even the Chaos gods arent evil. They are just the extreme embodiment of certain mortal ideals and emotions. Korne is the god of blood shed. He can be savage and brutal, or he can be honorable and disciplined. He encompasses both the ruthless attacker and stalwart defender. Nurgle is god of decay and death, but also of hope and rebirth. Change can be good and bad, and so can sensations. The gods are the extreme manifestations of these forces. No different than fire. Channeled, focused, and kept under controll it can be used as a positive force. Left unchecked it can destroy everything in its path.

The chaos marines are not solely evil either. They woke up, and realized that they were decieved into being the willing pawns of a tyrant that was enslaving humanity beneath his immortal rule. Their eyes were oppened to reality, and saw just how feeble the flame of humanity truly was, and turned to the true gods for help.

Nids and Orks are simply following their nature, and doing what they must to continue thier species. Eldar, Necrons, and even humanity are all declining and simply doing thier best to survive the harsh galaxy.

The Tau aren't evil. Nor are they solely good. They are a race that is just as dynamic and diverse as any other, and cant be painted with one brush.

[ashendant]

A few notes form the deathwatch RPG:
* Every Tau has the gem-like organ on their forehead, analysis of a etheral organ showed nothing different from other Tau, trough the Deathwatch speculated that Ethereal they captured was fake.
* If every Ethereal on the planet dies the fire caste becomes undisciplined and conflictous, once a new ethereal arrives they become calm and focused again.
* The Vespid Communion helm is never directly implied to do mind control, the Vespid mind is a very alien thing and barely recognize other sapient beings as sapient, the helm fixes that and makes them understand the concept of the Greater Good.

Any questions ask me

[seven324]

Good and evil really dont apply well to the 40k universe. No one is truly evil or good. Even the Chaos gods arent evil. They are just the extreme embodiment of certain mortal ideals and emotions. Korne is the god of blood shed. He can be savage and brutal, or he can be honorable and disciplined. He encompasses both the ruthless attacker and stalwart defender. Nurgle is god of decay and death, but also of hope and rebirth. Change can be good and bad, and so can sensations. The gods are the extreme manifestations of these forces. No different than fire. Channeled, focused, and kept under controll it can be used as a positive force. Left unchecked it can destroy everything in its path.

The chaos marines are not solely evil either. They woke up, and realized that they were decieved into being the willing pawns of a tyrant that was enslaving humanity beneath his immortal rule. Their eyes were oppened to reality, and saw just how feeble the flame of humanity truly was, and turned to the true gods for help.

Nids and Orks are simply following their nature, and doing what they must to continue thier species. Eldar, Necrons, and even humanity are all declining and simply doing thier best to survive the harsh galaxy.

The Tau aren't evil. Nor are they solely good. They are a race that is just as dynamic and diverse as any other, and cant be painted with one brush.

There really isn't anything who can be considered fully good in W40K, considering what it is like and what is required to deal with some of the things that occur.

Like i said though, i don't mean that i think the Tau are the nicest guys ever and just want peace and happiness and all that. They want control of the galaxy, just like everyone else does. What i don't get is why people say things like they are mindless slaves, or mind control, or "join or die" situations when there is no evidence of any of this at all, from what i've seen in the past 8 years. Out of all the W40K armies they can be considered the most 'good' but people say they aren't.

A few notes form the deathwatch RPG:
* Every Tau has the gem-like organ on their forehead, analysis of a etheral organ showed nothing different from other Tau, trough the Deathwatch speculated that Ethereal they captured was fake.
* If every Ethereal on the planet dies the fire caste becomes undisciplined and conflictous, once a new ethereal arrives they become calm and focused again.

Is Deathwatch 'canon' though? Back when i started it wasn't out, and i stopped paying attention to W40K for a few years (during that time the RPG things were made) What exactly does it say regarding those two? The gem-like organ seems to contradict what we have seen from official GW stuff. Could the thing about all the Ethereals dying just be something like the Tau have no sort of leadership for a while and they know that, so they act differently?

Lexicanum says: "However if the Ethereal falls in combat the remaining Tau, they are struck with grief that causes them to lose battles or get extremely enraged and charge forward, either way after a Ethereal falls the Fire Warriors lose all discipline and efficiency." Which makes sense if it's like that.

[Hannimar]

If by aby chance you played Mass Effect 3 - than Javik comes to mind. His race, the protheans, were basically like the Tau. When they encountered another race they offered the race to join them (in the name of Greater Good), or they would obliterate them (or tell them to leave their planets). Tau are agressive conquerors of the Eastern Fringe. So politically I wouldn't call any ruthless attacker a 'Good' Faction.

Besides that, I believe they are like any other race - there exist some good elements and some bad. IMO the only difference is that they 'preach' the so called Greater Good, which may be misleading.

Additionally, I wouldn't reffer to any race as Good or Bad. None of them. There are destructive factions like the Chaos Astartes, but otherwise none are evil - they simply persue their own goals. I see no difference in Necrons conquering planets or in Tau doing the same. Are Dark Eldar evil because they slaughter other races? Well, as they consider other species as below them, then I believe they aren't stricly evil. We also kill animals, cattle etc for substance, they do the same on their part. Are we evil?

There is no good and evil - fortunately this is not a fairy tale. Every faction has their own goals. I wouldn't even call some of the Chaos Legions as evil - I understand their point of view and the need for vengeance.

[seven324]

When they encountered another race they offered the race to join them (in the name of Greater Good), or they would obliterate them (or tell them to leave their planets). Tau are agressive conquerors of the Eastern Fringe. So politically I wouldn't call any ruthless attacker a 'Good' Faction.

Can someone please give me an example where this has happened? I have not once seen any indication of this happening at all. People say this all the time but i haven't actually seen any proof of it.

As for the thing about the Dark Eldar and the comparison to us killing Animals - we don't torture to the point of insanity, or inflict unbearable pain on them just for our amusement, or kill them (or worse) just because we can. Dark Eldar do. Just because they consider others bellow them doesn't make it morally right.

[LordLucan]

Commander brightsword was a ruthless swine when it came to conquering planets, but he got censured for it.

The Tau are a race of agressive colonialists. In a less dark setting, the tau would be the bad guys. However, comparatively, in 40K, they are 'good' even though good is rather subjective. I can definitely point out unambiguously evil races (the Dark Eldar most definitely), but I cannot honestly call the tau unambiguosuly good.

Hannimar goes too far. the tau will not extemrinate a world if they resist them. They make the offer tot he planet or race, to join the greater good. if they refuse, the opposing race will be conquered. Either way, they will join the greater good. Only the orks have been deemed inelligible for membership, and are mandated to be destroyed. I suspect the Tyranids will also make that list too. :P

[Veteran Sergeant]

What about their society is oppressive? I haven't seen anything to suggest it is anything like the Imperium, or bad at all.

The thing about them acting different when an Ethereal is killed can be explained - the Tau are utterly loyal to them and the Greater Good, seeing one of their highly respected leaders die infront of them would obviously make them act different for a while. Tau aren't in range of an Ethereal at all times.

But that's because you choose not to see the things that show the Tau to be oppressive. They have a rigid caste system dominated by an unquestioned ruling class. There are strong inferences of subtle mind control or at least social manipulation. The ruling class has created an epic propaganda machine in The Greater Good which rivals that of 1930s Germany. And that's just to start. Somebody once said the Tau were almost Orwellian in their subtle but comprehensive control over their society, and it's fairly accurate of an assessment.

Like I said, it doesn't have to be the radical xenophobia and radical religious fanaticism of the Imperium to be oppressive. The Tau Ethereals are just more clever, or at least more elegant, in their control measures.

[seven324]

Commander brightsword was a ruthless swine when it came to conquering planets, but he got censured for it.

The Tau are a race of agressive colonialists. In a less dark setting, the tau would be the bad guys. However, comparatively, in 40K, they are 'good' even though good is rather subjective. I can definitely point out unambiguously evil races (the Dark Eldar most definitely), but I cannot honestly call the tau unambiguosuly good.

Hannimar goes too far. the tau will not extemrinate a world if they resist them. They make the offer tot he planet or race, to join the greater good. if they refuse, the opposing race will be conquered. Either way, they will join the greater good. Only the orks have been deemed inelligible for membership, and are mandated to be destroyed. I suspect the Tyranids will also make that list too. :P

Again, can someone please give me an actual time when they have wiped out a race or planet that was not already in the hands of their enemies? Obviously the Tau do colonize other planets, but they don't wipe out entire planets because of it. For example, the Ciaphas Cain novel 'For the Emperor' has them establishing a small stronghold on a world and influencing it while trading with it.

But that's because you choose not to see the things that show the Tau to be oppressive. They have a rigid caste system dominated by an unquestioned ruling class. There are strong inferences of subtle mind control or at least social manipulation. The ruling class has created an epic propaganda machine in The Greater Good which rivals that of 1930s Germany. And that's just to start. Somebody once said the Tau were almost Orwellian in their subtle but comprehensive control over their society, and it's fairly accurate of an assessment.

Like I said, it doesn't have to be the radical xenophobia and radical religious fanaticism of the Imperium to be oppressive. The Tau Ethereals are just more clever, or at least more elegant, in their control measures.

There have been no suggesting of mind control other than Imperial speculation. The Caste system is because they each are adapted for different purposes - a Earth Caste would do no good fighting on the front lines. It was the Ethereals who stopped them from killing each other, so they are held in very high respect but they do not make all the choices themselves, there is also a council of high ranking members of each caste.

Having a goal to work towards and a purpose for them doing everything is not a bad thing. If they did not work together than things would be how they were in the past when they were all killing each other and they would be wiped out.

[Lord Damocles]

As for mistakes in Xenology - The Kroot has a Nose, Feathers, Three fingers instead of four, and i remember someone saying it had a tail. It is possible that this is because of how the Kroot evolve, but there is no indication of this. If it was meant to be different from a normal Kroot, there would of been some sort of indication to explain these things (E.g they would of said there appears to be some variation from a standard Kroot in this specimen)

Kroot
Kroot
Kroot
Kroot
Kroot
Kroot
Yet somehow Kroot is a terrible aberration?

[seven324]

Kroot
Kroot
kroot
Kroot
Kroot
Kroot
Yet somehow Kroot is a terrible aberration?

Those are not all just called Kroot though. They are are sub-species and each have separate names (KrootOx, Kroot Hounds, Kroot Knarloc etc). It also is what they belong to. I did not say that is not a kroot - i said there would of been some indication it was not just a ordinary Kroot Carnivore such as the Inquisitor conducting it noticing it is not the same as other examples. If those were all just called 'Kroot' and that was it, you would be right.

[Lord Damocles]

The point is, that Kroot are highly mutable (understatement!) One having one finger less than some others and a 'nose' is hardly grounds to start questioning the whole of Xenology (also note the total lack of a tail). Basic Kroot have been shown as more divergent than that elsewhere (eg. Unity).

There's no particular reason for Gakhar to be noted as being divergent - Sasham and Darvus aren't the most informed pair when it comes to Xenos, so they may not know that having three fingers warrants special mention. That or it's considered unnecessary - Kroot are mentioned as being mutable in the notes attached to the autopsy.
The nose might be explained by Gakhar's diet (D'Reyx; or possibly some of the Biegel-9 natives?)

[seven324]

The point is, that Kroot are highly mutable (understatement!) One having one finger less than some others and a 'nose' is hardly grounds to start questioning the whole of Xenology (also note the total lack of a tail). Basic Kroot have been shown as more divergent than that elsewhere (eg. Unity).

There's no particular reason for Gakhar to be noted as being divergent - Sasham and Darvus aren't the most informed pair when it comes to Xenos, so they may not know that having three fingers warrants special mention. That or it's considered unnecessary - Kroot are mentioned as being mutable in the notes attached to the autopsy.
The nose might be explained by Gakhar's diet (D'Reyx; or possibly some of the Biegel-9 natives?)

There are explanations i guess, but the same can be said about every other contradictory thing in W40K really - that's just how it works (which i like). I didn't say the whole of Xenology was incorrect and we should therefore never listen to what it says, just that it is not really the most trustable thing due to it getting some things wrong (although there are possible explanations)

[ForgottenLore]

They have a rigid caste system

That stems from biological differences. There has been no indication that non-tau in the empire are forced into the caste system, in fact the evidence is that they are not. Presence of a caste system is not evidence of any sort of "evilness", how such a system in implemented and how it deals with individuals that don't want to conform is how to judge the morality of such a thing. The fluff says that "all" Tau fit seemlessly into the caste system, but the fluff also says that "all" humans worship the emperor and that no Astartes would ever betray the Imperium, so even how truly rigid the caste system is is questionable.

dominated by an unquestioned ruling class.

Farsight. Including fire caste Farsight supporters WITHIN the Empire who have been grumbling about his exile and how the Ethereals have been treating him.

There are strong inferences of subtle mind control or at least social manipulation.

Yes, strong, INFERENCES. And nothing inherently wrong with social manipulation, every society does that to some extent, the Tau just have a better understanding of how to do it WELL.

The ruling class has created an epic propaganda machine in The Greater Good which rivals that of 1930s Germany.

Nothing wrong with good PR.

We have evidence that non-Tau in the Empire are treated well, given plenty of freedoms and generally live happy, productive lives. That evidence is no more and no less biased than the evidence that Ethereals exude some sort of pheromones yet somehow always gets ignored.

The Tau have always struck me as being a lot like the USA in the nineteenth century. They have a powerful sense of manifest destiny and are perfectly willing to do some nasty things along the way, but they genuinely believe that they are helping other races to improve their lives (and given what the rest of the galaxy is like, they are probably correct.)

For some reason, these discussions never seem to comment on how patient and practical the Tau are. They intend to conquer the galaxy, but they aren't in any particular rush to do so and would vastly prefer your planet to join willingly. If your little podunk agricultural world out in the boonies gets approached by the Tau and asked to join the empire and you say "no", the Tau are not going to start landing troops. They are going to probably blockade the planet, ensure that you pose no threat to the empire, and then spend a couple centuries on carefully tailored propaganda to change your mind. To my thinking, that is a pretty humane, yes, even "good" way of conquering a planet. They are only going to invest in a costly invasion for a planet that is of extreme strategic value or that poses a serious threat to other Tau planets. Otherwise they are content to take the slower, safer, cheaper, more certain path to power.