we sometimes judge the tau badly. remeber the tau almost wiped them self out. until the ethereal cast showed up. they look at the galaxy from there own experiances and see the other races destroying them selves in conflict just like the casts before the ethereals brought order. and are trying to do the same. they offer you inclusion in the TAU empire and let you run your own affers. only intervening if what your doing affects others.
No matter what positive spin you want to put on the Tau, it doesn't change the reality, lol. Like I said, you choose to see things the way you want, but the facts are there. /shrug.
Obviously The Greater Good has worked on you too.You should try detaching yourself from your favorite faction, and stepping back for a second to observe it objectively. I mean, I like Space Marines and I-Guard, but I recognize the realities about the Imperium, and especially the detached apathy with which the Space Marines are known to prosecute their campaigns. I also loved my Genestealer Cult, but that doesn't mean I'm a fan of psychically mind-controlling pesudo-religious beast worshiping cults, lol.
Though I can see that if you chose the Tau because you felt they were the good guys, it's somewhat jarring when you realize that they aren't actually "good" at all. At least at the empire level of organization. I'm sure there are plenty of "good" Tau just as there are plenty of "good" humans in the Imperium.
That's right, it doesn't. And the reality is that the Tau fluff is deliberately ambiguous as to just how "evil" their empire is. Yet people like you continually say "They absolutely positively do all these evil things" instead of saying, "Well. there is some evidence that they do nasty stuff, but there is also evidence that they don't, so we don't really know."Originally Posted by Veteran Sergeant
And you should try reading what the fluff actually says instead of just spouting the internet conventional wisdom. I basically demonstrated that nothing you said in your previous post showed the Tau to be evil and you came back with "Yea, whatever, your still wrong".You should try detaching yourself from your favorite faction, and stepping back for a second to observe it objectively.
Once upon a midnight dreary...
Him: "The defendant was seen fleeing the scene and, when discovered, was covered in the victim's blood, holding the murder weapon and, according to the sworn testimony of the arresting officer was repeatedly whispering to himself 'please forgive me, I killed her, I killed her'."
You: "Ah yes, but nobody actually saw him commit the murder! I move for a mistrial!"
40K is Bad Guys vs Worse Guys, and while the Tau may be on the top of the pile in-universe, by any rational standard they are definitely not "goodies"; even the more innocuous aspects of their culture are antithetical to modern western society(at least in principle).
Did I say they wiped out races and planets? I said they conquer planets and races who don't join the greater good. In fact, if you read my actual quote, I explicitly said they DON'T exterminate worlds.
Not being genocidal doesn't make a faction a good guy.
Also, in one of the ultramarine books, an ethereal's mind control/influence seems to get an explicit demonstration, as the ethereal, when in close proximity to the lord governor, brings the man under his control.
But that doesn't mean that they aren't good (or that they are evil), just that they are different.
Out of curiosity, what do you think DOES? Most of our modern western democracies are based on blatant conquest and genocide.
Once upon a midnight dreary...
I agree with ForgottenLore here. What standards are you guys using really? I don't think any society on earth would pass the test to be honest. They all hide things from the public and they are all more or less corrupt. Everyone is 'Evil', if 'good' = 'flawless'.
By any relative 40k standard, the Tau can certainly be said to be 'good guys'. As pointed out, the fluff is ambiguous. Some things hint at them being no so nice, whilst others outright say they are quite decent. Just because there are hints of them having some darker aspects does not make them "as bad as everyone else".
The 40k 'reality' is that we don't know how the Tau really function as a society. Generally, the darker hints are made from an Imperial pow, and that which is stated as facts make them out to be ok, considering they are at war with what is nothing less than nightmares come to life really. You can't be too soft when you have daemonic possession (humans within the Empire), alien manipulation (Eldar always screw everyone over) and outright unprovoked hostility (orks, nids and many more) to deal with.
My scratch-built Stompa, Traitor Guards, Cthulhu daemons and Word Bearers and my my terrain log.
"It's impossible for words to describe what is necessary to those who do not know what horror means. Horror. Horror has a face... and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies."
- Colonel Walter E. Kurtz
I never called the Tau evil.
You're entirely confused here. The title of the thread is "Why do people say the Tau aren't 'good'?", not "Why do people say the Tau are evil?" And, sadly for you, most of your points reinforce my argument, not yours. So you're either actually on my side of this discussion, or your analysis is terribly lacking of the evidence you're presenting. Your analogy of Manifest Destiny is a perfect example. America was, and never has been, an altruistic state. What Manifest Destiny did was create a unified vision for the country and a common goal to work for. A... greater good, if you will. In the process, Americans spread out westward, with little regard for the native populations, with the idea that it was not only their destiny that they should span from coast to coast, and that they would bring civilization to the wilds because they believed their way of life was the best one. America, however, has never been the good guys. Maybe better than many others? Sure. I mean, the world is full of failed and corrupt states that make the US look like a utopia, and certainly the "American Way" and "Manifest Destiny" and such have contributed heavily to the spirit and industriousness that has made the US the primary motivating factor for the technological revolutions of the last fifty or sixty years. But the US, as a nation still isn't altruistic, and it would be silly to say that the country has been. The Greater Good is an excuse to subjugate, either militarily or economically or otherwise, those of a differing socio-political entity.
But no successful country is altruistic. Altruism is the venue of the stable, not the aspirational. And the Tau lack for nothing in the ambition and aspiration department.
I mean, look at the caste system. The structure of the Tau Empire is almost identical to, so much so that it must be directly influenced by, the caste system from Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. If you were well versed in English language classics of modern literature, you'd have seen the parallels immediately. I mean, sure, the Deltas were happy. They were conditioned from birth to feel like they had the best lot in life, not aspire to anything greater, and had been genetically modified to fill their societally chosen role. However nobody would choose willingly to be a Delta over being a Alpha given actual free will. Just like nobody would choose to be of the Earth Caste over being an Ethereal. The citizens of the Tau empire live "happy", "productive" lives because they don't know anything else because the structure of their society has been engineered specifically to confine them to a predetermined role. But, not only that, to attempt to suppress any desire to advance, change, or cross caste boundaries. And the subjugated races don't even exist within the caste system. They might be allowed to exist peacefully, but only as long as they serve their role outside the system, devoid of any power or ability to affect the conduct of the Tau Empire. They are effectively non-entities. There's absolutely nothing "good" about The Greater Good" at all, lol. It's an inflexible, oppressive, unethical mechanism for social engineering.
If you look at the Farsight Enclave, while it isn't specifically stated why he broke with the Tau Empire, but it does include, very specifically, that it was a break with the Ethereal caste. Obviously, if he's still loyal to the Tau race, but not to the Tau Empire, there came some kind of realization that caused him to want to throw off the yoke. Maybe it's Chaos (just as planned). Or, maybe it's that he somehow broke free of the Ethereal influence, saw the Tau Empire for what it was, a very "They Live" sort of subliminally controlled puppet show. You never know. It's certainly the most plausible reason. Please don't take this topic and run too far with it though. I'm not saying this theory is right, I'm just saying that the close analysis of the text reveals a lot more than what is being explicitly stated. You're too far stuck in the propaganda of the Greater Good, and you're ignoring, or missing, the greater context. I'm not faulting you for it. I'm very well educated across a huge number of subjects, and very well read. So if I've noticed stuff you haven't that's no shock, and not to your discredit.
Again though, ultimately it comes down you, and the TS, are arguing that the Tau aren't bad, but not presenting any evidence for them being good. Meanwhile, I'm simply arguing that the Tau aren't good, but not that they are bad.
Last edited by Veteran Sergeant; 28-04-2012 at 23:23.
Funnily enough, you appear to be doing the polar opposite and putting a NEGATIVE spin on the Tau, which is no less biased.
As has already been stated, there is NO concrete evidence that the Tau are genuinely 'evil'. There are a few in-universe conspiracy theories and urban legends, like the pheremone-use, mind-controlling communion helms and extermination of other races, but these have never been explicitly stated to be true.
On the other hand, there IS some definitive evidence they are genuinely 'good'. Consider, if you will, the war at the place of Union. A Tau expeditionary force encountered the Kroot for the first time, and saved them from an Ork invasion, before they even thought of asking the Kroot to join up (now, this may be a bit of a hyperbole since it's never stated when they thought of it, but they still saved them before giving the offer). In return for their help in saving their species, the Kroot gave up their allegiance.
You also don't have to become a full subject of the Tau to get the benefits of their system. The Demiurge and many others are simply trading partners with the Tau. As long as they stay out of their way and occasionally give aid or sell technology and/or goods, and in exchange they have full access to a lot of their stuff.
Funnily enough, I've always thought the Tau's caste system was more like that of the Clans in Battletech, though not as much of a hierarchy and much less violent. The various castes do they jobs they do because they are good at them, not because they're forced to. A Water caste diplomat would probably make for a poor Earth caste engineer, just like a Firewarrior would be terrible at flying a manta. All the Ethereals really do is give the general gist of what the Empire needs to achieve, and sort out any disputes amongst the castes.I mean, look at the caste system. The structure of the Tau Empire is almost identical to, so much so that it must be directly influenced by, the caste system from Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. If you were well versed in English language classics of modern literature, you'd have seen the parallels immediately. I mean, sure, the Deltas were happy. They were conditioned from birth to feel like they had the best lot in life, not aspire to anything greater, and had been genetically modified to fill their societally chosen role. However nobody would choose willingly to be a Delta over being a Alpha given actual free will. Just like nobody would choose to be of the Earth Caste over being an Ethereal. The citizens of the Tau empire live "happy", "productive" lives because they don't know anything else because the structure of their society has been engineered specifically to confine them to a predetermined role. But, not only that, to attempt to suppress any desire to advance, change, or cross caste boundaries. And the subjugated races don't even exist within the caste system. They might be allowed to exist peacefully, but only as long as they serve their role outside the system, devoid of any power or ability to affect the conduct of the Tau Empire. They are effectively non-entities. There's absolutely nothing "good" about The Greater Good" at all, lol. It's an inflexible, oppressive, unethical mechanism for social engineering.
The Ethereals also don't have to use mind-control for the Fire caste to break down when one of them dies, they just have to be respected. When John F. Kennedy was assassinated the shock was immense and affected the entire United States. Princess Diana's death caused millions across the world to break out in morning. I've always imagined an Ethereal's death to be a similar kind of thing, but more potent.
At the end of the day, there is no conclusive facts saying the Tau are 'evil'. But many people, for whatever reason, don't like the idea of genuinely 'nice' factions in their 40k, so they highlight the little ambiguous hints that the Tau are 'bad' and use them to prove they are 'evil'. The best thing about 40k though is that it's ambiguous like that. Want your Tau to be a genuinely good wholesome caring ray of hope liberating the galaxy from the clutches of darkness one planet at a time? Go right on ahead, and the suggestions of mind-control and genocide are Imperial propaganda. Think the Tau should be insidious creepy godless big-brothers that are always watching? You do that, and any of their good deeds are just lies. It's up to you really, most people on the Internet simply seem to go with the latter rather than the former.
Last edited by Kakapo42; 28-04-2012 at 23:43.
It's because their no good space commies!!!
I kid, anywho I haven't heard anyone really call them evil. I mean sure some say the etherials mind control the general populace but other then that they seem to be a pretty straight forward race.
Acta Non Verba
"I have seen worlds burn and crushed nations underfoot, torn down the idols of false gods and slaughtered kings like cattle. Presume not to order me tiny man, for I am war, and you are no more than chaff before the scythe..."
I agree with Brother Sergeant on this, although I will go one step further and say that Brave New World, 1984, and We should be highly recommended reading for all Tau players (and everyone else as well). One of the things that many people either state or imply when referring to the Tau as bad guys is that in 40K, atrocities are necessary to survival. The entire universe is so hostile that unless you're willing to lie, cheat, steal, and kill you simply cannot survive the horrors out there. Drop the Tau in many other settings, like Star Trek or Babylon 5, and they would almost certainly be the villains, no matter how sympathetic the viewer may be. They may not be evil beyond redemption, but they are certainly no saint. They are an aggressive hunter race that has an unethical, and arguably sinister (not left handed), engineered social system. In terms of 40K morality, yes, they might as well be good guys, but only because their contemporaries are so extreme (the Imperium has made genocide a civic duty). In other settings, Tau could very easily be cast as the great evil villain. Likely they would fall somewhere in the sympathetic punch clock villains category instead, perhaps even with an undertone of their culture has blinded them to the evils they do. Still, when it all comes down to it I personally see the Tau first and foremost as a hopelessly doom species that will face the tragedy of having their potential, whatever it may be, cut short because they were simply caught between far greater forces than themselves as they blindly stumble into a galaxy they know far too little about. Think along the lines of something vaguely similar to Verdi's Madame Butterfly, except with empires in the grim dark future instead of people in 1904 Japan.
Wear a monocle and Bob Schieffer will laugh at you on the evening news.
Hurricanes are not the best way to keep crime down, Mr. Bloomberg.
Well, Ive got two pythons and a tiny guy in a rhinoceros costume with an obsession with disco,
Why wouldn't it be?
I wrote that on the lexicanum using Commander Flamewing experiences described in Deathwatch Mark of the Xenos.
So i'll look for the sources again and put them here
Commander Flamewing - Deathwatch:Mark of the Xenos - pg 8-10
I really like this guyOn the seventh night of the battle, something strange occurred. Flamewing’s warriors fell into a dark rage, one by one shedding the peerless discipline for which the Fire Caste is renowned and surrendering to something far more primal. Soon, the rage consumed Flamewing himself, and he observed his warriors growing surly and fractious. Shockingly, several brawls erupted in the ranks, a phenomenon that none had ever witnessed or experienced.
Then the realisation of what was occurring came to the Commander, and dread filled his soul; the Fire Warriors were succumbing to the same barbaric urges that had set the castes against one another at the very outset of their history, a time of bloodshed that only the coming of the Ethereal Caste had put at an end. The fact that Flamewing’s warriors were regressing to such an atavistic state could only mean that the last of the Ethereals on Zurcon Extremis had fallen to the Tyranids.
Realising his Hunter Cadre’s position was all but lost and its fate too terrible to consider, Flamewing saw but one course of action. He determined that not a single Tau would fall at the hand of his own kin, and rallied his warriors for one last, glorious action. Flamewing’s Hunter Cadre would sally forth from their position and sell their lives dear. If they were to fall, Flamewing promised, it would be for the glory of the Greater Good and they would serve the Empire by slaughtering its foes to the last.
Flamewing’s words stirred his warriors into a righteous rage, and the entire Hunter Cadre launched itself at the foe, Flamewing at the head. The battle raged for the remainder of the night and well into the next day, and as the sun reached its zenith only Flamewing and his Crisis Team retinue were left standing, atop a small mountain of Tau and Tyranid corpses.
The end was mere moments away, but suddenly, the survivors’ rage lifted, to be replaced with a sudden sense of familiar, blessed calm. A moment later, the communications channels sang with transmissions and a huge, multi-Hunter Cadre force crashed into the rear of the Tyranid horde.
Within an hour it was all over. Commander Flamewing and his few surviving companions stood before the Ethereal Aun’O Tsualal, and gloried in the radiance of his sacred presence. In the aftermath of Zurcon Extremis, Commander Flamewing entered a brief period of retreat and meditation. He had been grievously wounded, in body and in spirit, and has yet to fully recover.
During his retreat, Flamewing conferred with and studied beneath the most learned of Fire Caste notables, Commanders who had faced and mastered the same inner turmoil he himself had suffered on Zurcon Extremis. He meditated on the deeper truths of the Greater Good, and emerged possessed of such inner knowledge that few of those who had known him took him for the same warrior. Donning his battlesuit once more, Commander Flamewing took command of a new Hunter Cadre built around the survivors of the old, and vowed to take the battle to the Tyranids anew, armed with his newly acquired wisdom.
Ethereal Forehead Organ - Deathwatch:Mark of the Xenos - pg 11
The method by which the Ethereals maintain control over their species is unknown to the Imperium, and possibly even to those they rule. Several studies have been undertaken, and the Deathwatch is even in the possession of a low-ranked member of the caste having captured him as his vessel passed through an unclaimed system near Tau-controlled space.
Prior to the capture of this specimen, it was assumed that the Ethereals must utilise some unidentified method of biological, psychic or even pheromone control over the Tau. The Ethereals sport an unidentified organ in the centre of their foreheads, a smaller version of which is possessed by other castes. It was assumed that this organ must be key to the control effect, yet the specimen captured has been extensively examined and no functioning system has been identified. Either the captured Ethereal is a deliberate attempt to misdirect the Imperium, or the matter is far more esoteric than had previously been thought. Investigations into this mystery are ongoing.
On another note the Achilus assault makes it quite clear that is hard for the Imperium to keep their propaganda working when it comes to the Tau.
EDIT:Quotes because they are fun
“Give me Tyranids, Orks or heretics; simple hateful foes that will
face me with a scream on their lips and bloodlust in their eyes. These
blue-skinned devils are just far too reasonable for their own good.”
–Edens Haltorenium, Former Planetary Governor of Braanos V“The Warp is a child’s play pen compared to that place; mark my
words, you cross the Stygian Break and you had best be ready to die.”
–Callat Glass, void-master of the Mark of Perdition“The Imperium seeks first to destroy what they cannot accept. We
must force them to accept that they cannot destroy us, and then the
Greater Good shall prevail.”
–Por’O Ssalo’yen, senior Water Caste Envoy“Control of space is the control of power. Control of power is the
essence of the Greater Good.”
–Kor’O Y’Eldi“We make war because we must; they make war because they know no
other existence.”
–Shas’O M’yen
Last edited by ashendant; 29-04-2012 at 01:35.
Drop the Tau into the Star Trek Universe and they would be the federation. Many of the factions in Star Trek view the Federation as equally sinister, corrupting cultural morals and using economic and social pressures to get planets t join them willingly. To say nothing of the social engineering that apparently eliminates social unrest and strife and gives all humans happy, fulfilling lives.
Not explicitly, but you repeatedly call them very oppressive, and I have yet to see any evidence of that.
Upon what are you basing that? I have seen nothing that suggests Earth Caste guys, if removed from the presence of an ethereal for a while, would not still want to be scientists and researchers rather than priest/leaders (Alright, Farsight could be interpreted in that way, but Farsight is such a big question mark that he can be used as evidence of just about anything)Just like nobody would choose to be of the Earth Caste over being an Ethereal.
How are they prevented from advancing? Remember that, while the Ethereals have ultimate authority over the Empire, they don't use that power regularly. The primary power in the empire is wielded by various councils of the highest ranking members of each caste. The Ethereals advise and guide those councils when necessary (and presumably such council is always obeyed) but for the most part Tau of the other castes run things.But, not only that, to attempt to suppress any desire to advance, change, or cross caste boundaries.
See, this is the kind of remark I have a problem with. We have absolutely no idea how non-Tau fit into the larger socio-political structure of the empire but you are saying that they are conclusively shut out. It has been indicated that worlds that are peacefully assimilated remain under their own control. We know there are space faring races associated with the empire that are allowed to maintain their own fleets of starships. For all we know the Tau empire has a "House of Lords/House of Commons" type thing going on where worlds governed by non-Tau can participate in the overall administration of the Empire, or it might be as you claim and they are shut out completely but WE DON'T KNOW, and, to answer the OP's question, it is statements like this that lead people to saying that the Tau are not "good".And the subjugated races don't even exist within the caste system. They might be allowed to exist peacefully, but only as long as they serve their role outside the system, devoid of any power or ability to affect the conduct of the Tau Empire.
Again, in what way is it inflexible, oppressive or unethical. None of the things you have said so far sound in any way unethical to me.There's absolutely nothing "good" about The Greater Good" at all, lol. It's an inflexible, oppressive, unethical mechanism for social engineering.
You haveAgain though, ultimately it comes down you, and the TS, are arguing that the Tau aren't bad, but not presenting any evidence for them being good. Meanwhile, I'm simply arguing that the Tau aren't good, but not that they are bad.
said that they Oppressive
said that they Unethical
compared them to the state in 1984
obliquely compared them to Nazi Germany
repeatedly emphasized the idea that they exert some sort of active mind control
All that comes across like you are saying the are "bad", as you put it.
I'm arguing that we can't tell for certain whether they are good or bad. You keep claiming that they are bad (oppressive, unethical etc...) forcing me to cite evidence to the contrary. You keep saying that you are arguing for ambiguity, but the only things about the Tau that you are citing are negative aspects. Behavior like that is the reason "people say the Tau aren't 'good'".
Actually, your references to 1984 and Brave New World bring up an interesting point. The Orwellian system in 1984 isn't evil because of the amount of control they exert over the populace, it is evil because of how they make use of that power. Torture, frequent assassination, flagrant disregard for the well being of its populace. I don't think anything indicates that the Tau make use of big brother-esque monitoring devices or anything like that, but they do exercise a high level of control over the population, but the most of the evidence is that they use that control to actually improve the lives of the people, that they are responsive to their needs and desires. There is not much evidence that they assassinate their own people or rewrite vast swathes of history (some, but not much). I am only passingly familiar with Brave New World, but from what I do know its society is best described by the term apathy, which really doesn't apply to the Tau at all.
Oh, and one other thing
Do you think you can maybe be a little more patronizing and condescending? Because that is always a good way to win arguments.I'm not faulting you for it. I'm very well educated across a huge number of subjects, and very well read. So if I've noticed stuff you haven't that's no shock, and not to your discredit.
Once upon a midnight dreary...
* high ranking federation leader goes to the stage at federationmeeting concerning the great villain.. the Tau *
"Dear members of the federation.. a great threat to the federation and our welfare has emerged.."
- "what is this threat, dear leader-person?"
"They are called the Tau, a vile advanced and militaristic race, and they have demanded we hand over our liberties and serve them!"
* shocks, gasps, horror *
- "They demanded we become their slaves?!"
"No, no, I didn't say that, they demanded we serve them"
- "they demanded we serve them? Become their subordinates you mean?"
"Well.. no, not precisely.. 'part of their empire' would be a better way of calling it.. I believe they used the term 'partners'."
- "So.. they demanded we become part of their slave empire."
"empire"
- "I'm sorry?"
"just.. empire, not slave empire, just empire."
- "erhm, okay.. so they demanded we become part of their empire"
"uhm... well.. 'demanded' is a bit of a strong word.."
- "What would be the correct word?"
"Erhm.. 'asked' I guess..?
- "And what liberties would we have to give up if we became part of their empire?"
"We would occasionally have to fight for them!"
* shock, gasp, horror *
- "but federation leader-person, we basically have to do that already for the federation, don't we?
"Erhm.. well, yeah, but that's different. We're the good guys."
- "no arguing with that logic."
- "What if we were to refuse their demands?"
"requests"
- "huh?"
"You said demands, but they just asked.. so it's more like 'requests', not demands.. just nitpicking though.."
- "sure, whatever.. what if we were to refuse?"
"If we were to refuse...
* suspenseful silence *
..they will start a pamphletwar to try and persuade us!
* stunned silence *
- "those bastards! They're so evil!"
this might be my best mock-conversation to date
Any time I ever hear anybody say anything similar to this about any politics-related subject, it means that person nitpicked at something so that it is indeed not perfect, and thus oppressive, or unethical, or immoral, or deceptive, or unscrupulous, or unjust, or discriminatory etc. etc. with stuff like the quoted above people almost always try to say 'I am more educated than you, and so I can see the flaws, while you are blind and deceived by the cover these bad people put over your eyes'..
The major difference between factions like the space marines and imperial guard being 'evil' (or 'not good') and the Tau being so, is that with the imperium the fluff flat out comes and says that they're tyrannical, oppressive, bureaucratic labyrinthine, religious zealots with a taste for genocide, xenophobia, persecution of heretics and a total disregard for the wellbeing of the majority of their population except the wealthy and the important. Fanboying them into being real 'good guys' is close to impossible.
With the Tau it is more like 'they're an alien race with this caste system based on different subspecies, with a leadercaste, and an unwavering devotion to 'the greater good', with a couple of references to what may potentially be shady practices of social control, such as a pheromone (but how is that really different from how hormones affect us humans). In practice the Tau do a lot things that are hard to construe as 'not good'. The Tau would be preferrable to many of the governments we have here on earth. When looking at how their society is constructed (eg. castesystem), don't be so swift to judge it, because the judgement of any political system is in the eye of the beholder. One may say the Tau castesystem is oppressive and inflexible, another may find a system based on capitalism to be cruel and uncaring and may prefer a socialist/communist one instead.
Last edited by The bearded one; 29-04-2012 at 04:57.
Sometimes a post is so rotten I have to respond like dr.Cox-- My Dwarven painting log -- My Lizardmen painting log -- My Scurrying Skaven painting log -- My nurgle beastmen painting log --My Tau cadre painting log -- My knights of the white wolf -- My Ork painting log
---> Newest: 13-5-2013; Lizardmen, tournament pictures, Won best painted army! ---> New: 7-4-2013; The friendly riptide saves a firewarrior
I always thought their PR seemed more like Communist Russia than Germany.
And seriously on the mind wipe thing, it surely can't be argued, it's so strongly hinted at in the Tau codex to be considered gospel that they were mind controlled, or effectively mind controlled.
Win/Ties/Loss:
Tau 27/2/8 2009, 5/0/2 2012, 1/0/0 2013
Greyknights 17/3/4 2011, 47/4/11 2012
Some seem to think the 'Big Government' of the Tau (which even goes as far as decide which people you may have children with and what areas of work you may choose) is equal to them being 'Evil', or at the very least 'not good'. I mean, even among humans, it has been scientifically shown that the more complex the society, the bigger the government is needed if we want stuff like happiness and stability. Just because a government tells two parts (persons/companies) that they may not do say a certain transaction does not make the state 'not good'. It all depends on whose well being is protected by disallowing that transaction.
If the solution the Tau have employed produced the maximum amount of happiness, or at least minimises physical and psychological suffering in the population, how can it then be 'not good'? From what we know, existence for the Tau without the Etherals at the head is much worse, even if they have much more freedom.
We don't know if they could do things even better. With no war, they might be able to produce even happier populations, but that is not really reasonable before all hostile races have been subjugated or destroyed.
Referencing 1984 and Brave New World, while relevant, misses the point that Tau are not human. If the Tau enforced these rules on their human populations, we could be safe to assume there would be a lot of unhappiness. The psychology and biology of the Tau on the other hand seem to enable them to thrive within this system, and they would most likely not be particularly happy living within our western culture.
In short, there is nothing that points to the Tau society being far removed from what could be objectively called the 'optimum culture' for the Tau. Humans are not Tau, and require a different set of rules. If the Tau enforce rules upon humans which makes them thrive, or suffer, or if they just let them do whatever they want as long as the tax keeps coming is still in the open. It seems like they do micromanage other races, as I have yet to hear about a human population which has it just as bad as is common in the Imperium.
Then again, they are close to Ultramar, and the humans that join might be heavily influenced by the Ultramar culture, meaning they bring quite well-functioning cultures into the Tau Empire, which don't need any direct involvement from the Tau. There is a huge amount we don't know, and we can't even say they are 'not good' because they are totalitarian.
Last edited by totgeboren; 29-04-2012 at 09:10.
My scratch-built Stompa, Traitor Guards, Cthulhu daemons and Word Bearers and my my terrain log.
"It's impossible for words to describe what is necessary to those who do not know what horror means. Horror. Horror has a face... and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies."
- Colonel Walter E. Kurtz
I disagree with the Brave New World analogy. Fire, Earth, Water and Air are all equal, whereas Delta, Alpha Doubleplus and so on are not. Brave New World also has no equivalent of the Tau auxiliaries, such as the Kroot and Gue'la. The best analogy I can think of is a fascist, (as distinct from Nazi-all indiviual will subjugated to the state, corporatist society) somewhat Orwellian (implied mind control) version of the British Empire (aggressive imperialism with a heavy dose of civilizing rhetoric, the use of "martial races" in specialist regiments.) That this is better than many alternatives shows how terrible the alternatives are. Some imperial worlds are probably better than the Tau Empire for their human inhabitants. For example, in the third Gaunt novel, we see a hive world containing what looks like a sort of democracy. These worlds may not be the majority. The imperial system of government is a feudal one, meaning that the central state doesn't have that much of a say in what its worlds are actually like. This is pretty convenient for us gamers who want our own special snowflake origin world.
Now just doing Battle Reports.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191378 for the Red Guards
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196677 for my Imperial Guard.)
"this is the best 40k stuff I have ever read." (Carltmc)
In Deathwatch, there's references to the Tau sterilising populations under their control, to keep their numbers from growing too large.
There's also disappearances of dissidents "and it is the way of the Greater Good to pretend they never existed at all".
I am aware of this. note how we aren't genocidal anymore, as that aspect of our past is distasteful.
We've mostly moved past this colonial past, and consider those exploitative days to have been not a terribly righteous period in our history.
The British Empire generally justified itself by saying it brought enlightenment and prosperity to its members. Perhaps, in some way it might have done, but it sure as hell did horrible things along the way, with the slave trade (which was eventually abolished by Britain, but the empire was all for it for a long time before), the Opium Wars, Kenya, concentration camps and the invention of said camps, the India famine, and various other events.
Now undoubtably the British Empire brought advantages to many nations and was a positive force when faced with far worse powers and opponents, but I cannot claim in was unambiguously good.
I don't think any nation or state is completely good or completely bad. Some policies are righteous, others selfish, some ultruristic, others more ambiguous morally.
It is rather reductive to sum up an entire faction as good. There will be heroes and villains within any culture. In the context of 40K, the Tau's expansive colonialism is not only positive, but is neccessary if the Tau hope to even survive the setting. It is idealistic and pragmatic. I have never said the tau are evil, but good just doesn't cut it as an explanation for their society. I'm not being a moral relativist however; I just think summing up the Tau as 'the good guys' is as reductive as summing up the Imperium as 'the bad humans'. It tells us notihng, and ignores the fact there are plenty of good guys witihn the horrendous Imperial system they find themselves in.
So what i've seen so far, people think the Tau aren't 'good' because:
1. The Greater Good Propaganda
2. The Ethereals have a Calming Influence for control
3. They have a Caste System despite being best suited for that purpose
4. They colonize aggressively (which is what several other races in W40K do, but Tau don't wipe out races who refuse to join the Empire)
Have i missed anything really?
I am in no way saying that the Tau are 'good' in the sense that they are the ultimate good guys in W40K and nothing will ever be better than them, i just don't see why so many people say that they aren't the most 'good' out of all the W40K armies there is. Several of the reasons i've seen appear to have little or no proof, or have explanations (such as the Vespids, Sterilization etc) although as i haven't been up to date with the latest Codexes, novels, etc for a few years i might have missed something.
Can someone please explain to me why everyone says they have a 'join or die' mentality though? That is my main problem. I've seen it mentioned every time this topic is mentioned, yet i still haven't seen where everyone gets this idea from.
Last edited by seven324; 29-04-2012 at 11:41.
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