Why do people say the Tau aren't 'good'?

[otakuzoku]

we dont know much about the Tau we know about there cast system and the concept of grater good. when we think of communism we think of no individual freedom and oppressive regimes. but if you took away those notions douse the codex say they are kept in line by secret police ?. imagine something different. every one has a voice. can say what they want. hold there own opinion. they have good homes, good food, free time to advance them selves personally through works of art. are never hungry. in return they do a job that provides to the society they live in and sustains that way of life.
the Trial by fire is different for each cast. but all are based on proving your self, you advance through action. not by just waiting for inevitable progression to happen. that why the tau have advanced so fast. each is driven to succeed and to better them self for them self and all those around him.

they would still deserve there place in the 40k universe even more so. the fact that on the scale of thing the odds are stacked against them is just as grim dark as them being a dictatorship or sadists

[Liber]

Eugenics has a bad rep. Once upon a time it was fashionable and cool.

You are a braver man than I, Prince Xisor.


Anyways, too all the people trying to push the "The Tau are super evil, just in their own way" line...I shudder to think what opinion you hold of major Wester powers like the USA.

[totgeboren]

Seriously? That's your justification? It's ok to kill people, because those of us (I assume you presume you will survive the purge?) left behind will be happier? Isn't that the same justification that serial killers use? It makes me happy, so please scream louder. I get that you think that it's for a good cause etc, but see my earlier post about adolescent fantasies.

Force is only justified in self-defense. Preemptive self-defense is a very murky topic. Clear and present danger are the usual criteria, but that of course is open to debate. Killing people because they are lazy? I suppose you aren't up on the latest medical science that says some of that may be related to levels of chemicals in the brain that relate to risk vs reward calculations? So perhaps the people you advocate killing just need medication.

On a personal note, as a Libertarian I fully support your right to hold these opinion, but that doesn't mean I don't think you are a sick puppy.

I haven't read anywhere that the Tau actually kill their weak and infirm? To the contrary, I was under the impression that they have quite good healthcare. I also want to point out that eugenics means the "applied science or the bio-social movement which advocates the use of practices aimed at improving the genetic composition of a population".

The use of the caste system, which in turn is quite natural for the Tau, is eugenics. Killing people for eugenic reasons is a very extreme thing to do, and at least in humans, the fear and unhappiness it produces in the population have been shown to outweigh the potential benefits by a great deal. We don't know if the same is true for the Tau, but it would seem likely. Even sterilizing for eugenic reasons produce quite a bit of unhappiness in the population as a whole, so it's hard to imagine a scenario where even that would be a good idea.

However, practices like amniocentesis is also clearly a form of eugenics, and that has been used for many years IRL without the population being distressed. I would well imagine the Tau doing genetic screenings as routine for mental and physical defects or diseases, for purely eugenic reasons. Would this make them evil? What I see is a simple case of 'The Greater Good', with no drawbacks really.
To me eugenics is simply common sense, and not killing people because they are not 'perfect' is also common sense. To put it like this, if we can prevent children from being born with genetic diseases and defects, I would say it is more evil to not remove the defects than to keep them. So in the case of genetic engineering, not doing eugenics would be more 'evil' than doing it. Under the assumption that it doesn't cost a huge amount of resources of course.

[Twisted Heretic]

You are a braver man than I, Prince Xisor.


Anyways, too all the people trying to push the "The Tau are super evil, just in their own way" line...I shudder to think what opinion you hold of major Wester powers like the USA.

What, you shudder to think that maybe there are some people out there who think the developed west isn't exactly a shining pure bastion of hope, justice, and goodness? Perish the thought...

Anyway, to gain back some semblance of being on topic, even though I'm sure this point has been made before by people far more eloquent than I, the Tau are no more 'evil' than the Imperium or the Eldar. This is Warhammer 40,000. There are no 'good guys.' Now the argument may certainly be made that there are definite 'bad guys,' but if you're holding out for a faction of Incorruptible Pure Pureness™ that always has the moral high ground, you're going to have a long wait.

Now, I kind of liked the early idea of the Tau as the merciful and benevolent force for (greater) good in the Universe. While I can understand why they've tried to darken them up a bit (though the lack of subtlety is somewhat annoying), the Tau, even if taken at face value as true 'good guys', did fit into the themes and feel of the 40k universe in a very specific, and to my mind, hilarious way...They're screwed. They're the outside party that has no idea how the rules of the Universe actually work, and the timeline since their reintroduction should have been portrayed as one long painful wake-up-call. Unfortunately, this seems to have been missed by a good chunk of the fanbase, and by the rather facepalm-worthy efforts of GW writers, who apparently decided the best way for the Tau to survive and keep their theme was to have every last canon adversary pick up the Idiot Ball when facing them. The feeling that, not only were they anti-thematic, but that they were the setting's invulnerable Mary Sues seems to have been the final nails in the coffin for the themes put forward in the first codex.

[Awilla the Hun]

Something of interest: http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2012/...tion-leak-and/

I also find the number of Tau fans who approve of eugenics and the sterilisation of the enemy population (which is to say, hardly any of the Tau fans present) to be unnerving.

[Iron_Lord]

The important part is that it's not so much the enemy population as the "allied population"- the human worlds that have made alliance with the Tau and accepted their alien overlords.

If they'll do that to their own willing collaborators, just how nasty will they get toward their open enemies?

[Kakapo42]

The important part is that it's not so much the enemy population as the "allied population"- the human worlds that have made alliance with the Tau and accepted their alien overlords.

If they'll do that to their own willing collaborators, just how nasty will they get toward their open enemies?

Except, as has already been stated, there is NO concrete evidence that states the Tau mistreat their allied populations (except for possibly Deathwatch, but I have little experience with that so others who know it well please state otherwise if this is the case). On the other hand, many official sources such as the Tau codex, the Tau battlefleet gothic PDF and the short story cleanse the xenos*, DO state that the Tau treat their allied factions extremely well. The Kroot, for example, are largely left to run their own affairs, while the Nicassar seem to be much better off working with the Tau.

*Now, admittedly this could be simply propaganda, but if it is assumed to be true then humans under Tau authority are very well off. At any rate there is official evidence to suggest that the Tau treat the vast majority of their allies very well off.

[Trasvi]

Good point about the Kroot - the Tau are happy to let them run around the galaxy selling themselves as mercenaries, and as long as they don't fight against they Tau, they Tau are ok with it. Doesn't sound particularly repressive or evil to me...
Similarly, I think our ideas about the caste system are seriously clouded by previous caste systems on Earth. Tau have a major difference in that each caste is essentially a different species. Do we even know if it is possible for two castes to breed?

As an aside, where can one find GW lore about Tau? Not just the absolute canon, but anything produced with GW's seal of approval?

I'm thinking:
3rd Edition Codex
4th Edition Codex
Imperial Armour 3: Taros Campaign
Battlefleet Gothic Tau Fleet List
Firewarrior
Firewarrior Novel
Dawn of War II
White Dwarfs #.... 261-5 (first release), 285, and 313-21 (second release) (http://www.gamehobby.net/.search?query=tau&name=Search)
4th + 5th Edition Rulebook, Cityfight, Planetstrike, Battle Missions, Apocalypse (probably a little bit of fluff in each but I don't know where)
Xenology
I'm afraid I don't know much about GW's online Tau stories or Black Library efforts. Anyone?

[Iron_Lord]

Good point about the Kroot - the Tau are happy to let them run around the galaxy selling themselves as mercenaries, and as long as they don't fight against they Tau, they Tau are ok with it. Doesn't sound particularly repressive or evil to me...

Actually the Tau don't know about it- Kroot mercenaries are kept secret from them, according to Andy Hoare's Kroot Mercenaries WD article:

"Unfortunately the Tau insistence that the Kroot fight exclusively for them would lead to a disastrous stagnation, as they have absorbed the traits of most of the creatures from within the Tau region. To collect as wide a range of characteristics as possible, they secretly dispatch entire armies of mercenaries to fight alongside other races in order to expose themselves to creatures and environments not found in Tau space."

Deathwatch, Deathwatch: Mark of the Xenos, and Deathwatch: The Jericho Reach may all be of interest to those wanting to know about that particular Tau colony in the region.

[SomeRandomEvilGuy]

Similarly, I think our ideas about the caste system are seriously clouded by previous caste systems on Earth. Tau have a major difference in that each caste is essentially a different species. Do we even know if it is possible for two castes to breed?

I figure that the Ethereals were likely responsible for just how different the different Castes have become. Otherwise those who would become the Fire Caste would have quickly dominated the other three Castes. Logically, the Ethereals made this happen, so it would still count as morally 'wrong' if someone thinks the Caste system is wrong. Eugenics is often frowned upon in the West.

[ForgottenLore]

I figure that the Ethereals were likely responsible for just how different the different Castes have become. Otherwise those who would become the Fire Caste would have quickly dominated the other three Castes. Logically, the Ethereals made this happen, so it would still count as morally 'wrong' if someone thinks the Caste system is wrong. Eugenics is often frowned upon in the West.

Except the codex specifically states that the Tau were divided into four groups before the ethereals came. With one group being hunters, one group building large cities and fortifications, one group negotiating trade alliances witht he others and one group "soaring on membranous wings" (or something like that), which I have seen argues meant actual biological wings, or primitive hang glider type things, but regardless, the caste's fundamental personalities were obviously in place long before the ethereals showed up.

[Liber]

What, you shudder to think that maybe there are some people out there who think the developed west isn't exactly a shining pure bastion of hope, justice, and goodness? Perish the thought...

You obviously missed the point

[Grimbad]

Something of interest: http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2012/...tion-leak-and/

I was excited at the 'more like 2nd edition 40k' part. Then I read the part about space marines splitting more from the Imperium and thought that the logical progression of space-marine-centric background, even if it's a bit annoying. Then I read the part about the Tau being the agents of the Emperor's Seldon Plan and the Ultramarines being the Second Foundation and threw up in my mouth just a bit. (Fortunately, it sounds almost certainly untrue, even though it fits into the current Big Galaxy Things attitude of the setting)

[Lord_Byron]

In your example, you are omitting the fact that the US did send an army with the express intent of cleansing all Mexicans from their country and claiming it as a part of the US, populating it with US-born citizen. However, luckily for the Mexicans, bad weather prevented the US forces from reaching Mexico until the Mexicans managed to get some means to defend themselves.

Bad weather, and Nicholas P. Trist...

[Iron_Lord]

"As the Tau Empire expands out from its homeworld, the Tau inevitably encounter new races previously unknown to them, and to each of these an offer of allegiance is made. There are many aggressive, arrogant and selfish races in the galaxy, however, and even the Tau often find first contact results in nothing more than yet another bloody war. There are other races however, who readily accept the message of the greater good and take up their place in the Tau Empire. Some of these races are small, perhaps located on just a single world, or else primitive with little useful resource to offer the Tau, in which case their accession to the Empire is simply a formality, with the benevolent Tau offering protection to these lesser races while they can expect little other than appreciation and friendship in return. Other additions to the Empire are advanced in themselves, and the union of two such cultures provides valuable new knowledge, technology and understanding for both parties. Such races, where able, fulfil their debt to the Tau Empire by a series of tithes which suit their own particular abilities. Able craftsmen, for instance, may be called upon to provide manufacturing capacity, while aggressive or warlike races will be obligated to provide troops to the armies of the Tau. There are other races still who do not wish to fully submit to the Empire, but who likewise have no wish for war with the Tau and will instead strike up armistices or treaties of neutrality, opening up lucrative new markets or providing new allegiances for mutual protection. Such races are also likely to hire themselves out as mercenaries to the Tau Empire when the opportunity arises. "
Battlefleet Gothic Armada supplement

Sometimes, the tau conquer, other times, they just help. Sometimes, the tau demand help from their allies and subjects, and sometimes, they come to their aid without expecting any help from their belliguered allies. If you don't want to be part of them but you're okay with them being your neighbour, they're going to let you in peace.
All in all, they're good.

That's 3rd ed era though. 4th ed makes it clear that neutrality is not an option when the Tau come calling:

Codex: Tau Empire , page 10

The Greater Good requires that all join together and acknowledge the guidance of the Ethereal caste, and this includes any and all races with whom the Tau come into contact. Perhaps unsurprisingly, few races are willing to surrender unreservedly, and so the Fire caste has gone to war on numerous occasions. Those worlds that will not willingly join the empire are dragged to the negotiating table under threat of annihilation. Those that remain openly defiant face obliteration under the orbital guns of the Air caste fleet.

[seven324]

That's 3rd ed era though. 4th ed makes it clear that neutrality is not an option when the Tau come calling:

Codex: Tau Empire , page 10

Thanks, that's the sort of thing i was looking for to explain why people say they aren't 'good'. That's where people get their supposed "join or die" mentality from then, seems it's true. Alhough there are several occasions where races don't actually join the Empire but are still on good terms with the Tau.

I don't see why both quotes can't be true though, as long as you listen to the Ethereals and benefit the Empire in some way you should be fine. It's when you outright refuse that could cause problems.

They do still seem the most 'good', however.

[ForgottenLore]

And it took 12 days, 175 posts and multiple, involved, arguments and requests for evidence before someone actually POSTED that particular quote?

A sincere Thank You to Iron_Lord.

[Clockwork-Knight]

That's 3rd ed era though. 4th ed makes it clear that neutrality is not an option when the Tau come calling:

Codex: Tau Empire , page 10

I'm pretty sure this is repeated verbatim in the 3rd edition Tau Codex.

[Iron_Lord]

I checked and couldn't find it in the old 3e Codex: Tau- as far as I can tell the 4e version is the first to suggest they're that determined to make other races part of their empire regardless of the wishes of those races.