Why do people say the Tau aren't 'good'?

[MvS]

An interesting thought game might be to imagine yourself as part of an intelligent but hitherto unknown (to 40K) alien civilisation. You suddenly have a God's Eye view of the galaxy and in depth details and history of all its other major civilisations. You're then told that it is completely inevitable and unavoidable that you will be discovered by one of the other civilisations / species in the galaxy and that you have the power to pick which one, but you DON'T have the power to change their more usual approach to dealing with aliens.

Looking at your species in in relation to the Tau, the Imperium, the Eldar and indeed any other race / civilisation, which would you prefer to be discovered by and why? You're not permitted to have suicidal tendencies or want a 'quick death'.

Your goals are survival first (so the largest number of your people not being dead), followed by quality of life (so readily accessible food and water supplies, a place to live in security, the freedom to raise a family, gainful employment of some sort, that sort of thing) followed by maintenance of your culture (so keeping your civilisation - language, norms, customs, ideologies etc - as close to how they were originally as possible).


EDIT

In response to an issue raised further down in this thread, I'm adding the following proviso:

you also have to imagine that your planet / civilisation has something that all the other truly factions want or need.

[Kevlar]

There isn't really a theme of good and evil there. It is more political. The Imperium are space facists and the Tau are space communists. Their ideals are diametrically opposed, but neither are good or evil in a biblical sense.

[carlisimo]

There isn't really a theme of good and evil there. It is more political. The Imperium are space facists and the Tau are space communists. Their ideals are diametrically opposed, but neither are good or evil in a biblical sense.

The idea that the individual exists to serve the state is the original definition of fascism; communism is an economic system. I haven't seen much to suggest that the Tau are communist. Castes are pretty much the opposite of a classless society, and the means of production don't appear to be communally owned.

Granted, nowadays most people use the word to describe state capitalism. Capitalism is where the provider of capital (the investor) is granted control of the means of production (the investor owns the company and its profits rather than its workers or leaders), and in most "communist" countries the state takes that role. The fluff behind the Tau trade fleets suggest that the Tau don't work that way either. Their economics are more likely to be mercantilist.

You're going to have to define what you mean by good and evil in the Biblical sense too, because the Old Testament and New Testament seem to be quite different when it comes to morality, and a lot of it wouldn't seem to be relevant to 40k.

[Bonzai]

EXPLICITLY CONTRADICTED by the quote from just a little earlier in the thread. At this point the people claiming they have a strict join or die mentality are simply outright lying. If you want to make that claim start backing it up.

It's not join or die.. I never said that. It's either;

A. Join williningly or unwillingly, but one way or the other your going to join. The more cooperative, and helpful you are in the process, and the better it will go for you.

Or

B. Your too strong to force, and you won't join willingly, so we are going to chip away where we can until we are in a better position to bargain.

We don't hear about any world that decides not to join, and is left to it's own devices and completely unmolested, do we? At the very best we hear about "trading Partners", and we don't really know the details of that relationship yet.

@ MvS: My Answer? The Eldar. They don't want to conquer, and if we stay out of their way, and offer nothing to them, we would be beneath their notice.

[Rogue Star]

@ MvS: My Answer? The Eldar. They don't want to conquer, and if we stay out of their way, and offer nothing to them, we would be beneath their notice.

So... nothing changes until the more likely Orks or Tyranids show up?

[Charistoph]

It's not join or die.. I never said that. It's either;

A. Join williningly or unwillingly, but one way or the other your going to join. The more cooperative, and helpful you are in the process, and the better it will go for you.

Or

B. Your too strong to force, and you won't join willingly, so we are going to chip away where we can until we are in a better position to bargain.

We don't hear about any world that decides not to join, and is left to it's own devices and completely unmolested, do we? At the very best we hear about "trading Partners", and we don't really know the details of that relationship yet.

@ MvS: My Answer? The Eldar. They don't want to conquer, and if we stay out of their way, and offer nothing to them, we would be beneath their notice.

So... nothing changes until the more likely Orks or Tyranids show up?

Keep in mind, the Eldar are always ready and willing to direct a hive fleet or a waaagh!!! In your direction if you've managed to piss them off a little, or just to keep them from hitting their craftworld or an exodite planet.

[Jack of Blades]

An interesting thought game might be to imagine yourself as part of an intelligent but hitherto unknown (to 40K) alien civilisation. You suddenly have a God's Eye view of the galaxy and in depth details and history of all its other major civilisations. You're then told that it is completely inevitable and unavoidable that you will be discovered by one of the other civilisations / species in the galaxy and that you have the power to pick which one, but you DON'T have the power to change their more usual approach to dealing with aliens.

Looking at your species in in relation to the Tau, the Imperium, the Eldar and indeed any other race / civilisation, which would you prefer to be discovered by and why? You're not permitted to have suicidal tendencies or want a 'quick death'.

Your goals are survival first (so the largest number of your people not being dead), followed by quality of life (so readily accessible food and water supplies, a place to live in security, the freedom to raise a family, gainful employment of some sort, that sort of thing) followed by maintenance of your culture (so keeping your civilisation - language, norms, customs, ideologies etc - as close to how they were originally as possible).

Seriously why did you stop writing background for GW? I read your posts in both fantasy and 40k sections and they're pretty much always compelling. If only you could've written more on Chaos than just Liber Chaotica...

EDIT: I struck up LC again and something that always struck me is when the Hung ''don't even know how to build a bridge across a river''. I find this grimly ironic since neither do I nor most people.

[kardar233]

This combines well with Kardar's post above. I would agree with Kardar (that the Tau aren't grimdark enough to fit into the 40k universe) if Tau society was classically liberal. But it's not. It's fascist by one definition of the term, in which the individual exists in service the state. It might actually be necessary to survive in that universe. In fact, it might be necessary for the Tau to exist at all, since they were on the path to self-destruction back when they had free will.

However, they don't seem to impose their way of life on other species in their empire. Well, not always. There are strong hints that Vespids are controlled through trickery (the helmets). That might only apply to the Vespids that are taken into the Tau military though (and no one's disputing that they demand tribute, including soldiers, from their vassals). As for sterilization, I've only seen it mentioned in regards to humans, who are generally an enemy faction. I wouldn't trust a splinter group within my empire either.

In the modern world they wouldn't look like good guys, but in 40k they do. Being a cog in the machine is just a figure of speech for the Tau... in the Imperium of Man, or if you're captured by orks, it could literally happen to you.

Just because you're fascist doesn't mean you're grimdark. Fascism is a perfectly viable system of government as long as the guys at the top of the food chain aren't too corrupt or incompetent, and the Ethereals seem to be neither (except on the battlefield, but that's not really their area of expertise).

Sure, they're trammeling the life paths a Tau can choose to take but on the 40K scale that doesn't even ping on the grimdark auspex. The sterilization is (sadly) non-canon, and though mind-controlling a subservient race is getting there it's not much in the scale of the Tau fluff.

An average Tau in the Empire is going to get all the essentials of food, housing and clothing working a completely steady job that they're suited for. An average human in the Imperium is going to be grubbing for scraps in the sumps, working a brutal shift of menial labour for minimal gain or off ganging or soldiering, both of which give them a life expectancy of days if they're lucky.

They're just so damn nice relative to the rest of the universe, and it pisses me off. This is 40K, nice guys are supposed to last longer inside a 'Nid's digestive system than he did outside.

[Lionsprey]

Just because you're fascist doesn't mean you're grimdark. Fascism is a perfectly viable system of government as long as the guys at the top of the food chain aren't too corrupt or incompetent, and the Ethereals seem to be neither (except on the battlefield, but that's not really their area of expertise).

Sure, they're trammeling the life paths a Tau can choose to take but on the 40K scale that doesn't even ping on the grimdark auspex. The sterilization is (sadly) non-canon, and though mind-controlling a subservient race is getting there it's not much in the scale of the Tau fluff.

An average Tau in the Empire is going to get all the essentials of food, housing and clothing working a completely steady job that they're suited for. An average human in the Imperium is going to be grubbing for scraps in the sumps, working a brutal shift of menial labour for minimal gain or off ganging or soldiering, both of which give them a life expectancy of days if they're lucky.

They're just so damn nice relative to the rest of the universe, and it pisses me off. This is 40K, nice guys are supposed to last longer inside a 'Nid's digestive system than he did outside.

Why? They actually use common sense when dealing with people. they don't have millions of worlds with cannon fodder. they can't afford to be evil. converting people is a lot better then conquering them
if you get a planet to join willingly the risk of rebelion and civil unrest is reduced and if you provide the new citizens with things they didn't get under the last rule such as work, food etc, the chance of trouble is even lower. the Tau empire is the only race capable of conquering a planet without a military force.

They aren't being "nice" for the sake of it they are being nice becouse it's the most logical and easy way to do things. it's like a ork going to a fight and he sees a choppa and a stick. no "sane" ork would go for the stick over the choppa.

[Ozeryk]

the Tau empire is the only race capable of conquering a planet without a military force..

The Imperium is also capable of doing this!

They aren't being "nice" for the sake of it they are being nice because it's the most logical and easy way to do things. it's like a ork going to a fight and he sees a choppa and a stick. no "sane" ork would go for the stick over the choppa.

However I agree with this statement.
The evil vs good discussion, while interesting, is not really relevant in the 40k universe.

[Iron_Lord]

The sterilization is (sadly) non-canon.

Why- because it's in Deathwatch?

If people are citing Commander Flamewing (a Deathwatch character) to prove the point that even without Ethereals a Fire Warrior can retain devotion to the Greater Good, why doesn't Deathwatch's sterilization mention count as well?

[LordLucan]

Iron_Lord has a point.

Also, this discussion is strange to me, because both sides seem to be saying 'the Tau are 'good' compared to the other 40K factions'. Is the debate primarily discussing degrees of 'goodness' or something?

Forgive me for sounding a bit thick, but I've lost track of the argument what with the fores tof quotes and stuff.

[MvS]

MvS: My Answer? The Eldar. They don't want to conquer, and if we stay out of their way, and offer nothing to them, we would be beneath their notice.

I would have to add that your planet / civilisation has something that all the other factions want, otherwise the thought-game is moot.

Seriously why did you stop writing background for GW?

A mixture of more pressing work (to my career) coming up and not getting any more commissions from BLP due to some communication problems.

I read your posts in both fantasy and 40k sections and they're pretty much always compelling.

Thank you.

[kardar233]

Why- because it's in Deathwatch?

If people are citing Commander Flamewing (a Deathwatch character) to prove the point that even without Ethereals a Fire Warrior can retain devotion to the Greater Good, why doesn't Deathwatch's sterilization mention count as well?

It's been repeated in Deathwatch? Sorry, haven't read that. I was thinking y'all were referring to Dawn of War: Dark Crusade. I'm perfectly willing to take FFG stuff as canon, especially as it's usually better than the actual GW stuff.

[Oots]

I imagine this discussion has been done a lot over the years. It's also one prone to lengthy embittered argument based on one's own personal ideology or politics. (and that obnoxious point-for-point thing people do on the internet)

I wonder if there's a correlation between seeing the Tau as bad (say, even within the crapsack universe that is 40k) and adhering to libertarian principles?

Anyway if the Tau structure is what makes the most tau the most happy then I guess it's good for them, at least. I mean we don't know if a Fire Caste guy has ever even wanted to be a trader or pilot. Maybe what they do really is hardwired into their biological nature.

Re: their interactions with other races, I'm not up to date on the fluff. I think there must be some deliberate ambiguity here? Expansionist brave-new-world style bullies, maybe. The one ray of hope, maybe. Given how grimdark++ 40k is, possibly both at once.

[MvS]

I imagine this discussion has been done a lot over the years. It's also one prone to lengthy embittered argument based on one's own personal ideology or politics.

Hence the thought game I suggested in an attempt at 'objectivity'...

What are your thoughts?

[Bonzai]

I would have to add that your planet / civilisation has something that all the other factions want, otherwise the thought-game is moot.

Ah... well that changes the scenario completely. But really not my answer. Again, the Eldar don't really do conquest. They barely have the numbers and strength to maintain what they have, let alone expand upon it. The Eldar are much more likely to take what they want and leave. Now... if subjugation is inevitable, then yeah... the Tau would be the best bet for survival.

The real question is, Does being the lesser of two evils make you not evil? I would say no. If your a bastard, then you are a bastard, even if everyone else is an even bigger bastard than you are.

As for Tau not having a place in the grimdark horror of the 40k universe, I disagree. When you take them from the perspective of the Imperium, each faction have different reasons to be feared. The Chaos daemons and traitors show that they are all to fallible and corruptable. Daemons are the manifestation of emotions, so the irony is that mankind creates it's own worst enemy just by virtue of being human. It's a war that can never be truly won. The Traitor marines are a stark reminder that even the strongest and best of us can fall to these influences.

The Orks are to be feared because they are violence for it's own sake. No reason or provocation required. The more you fight, the more you encourage them. You are given no choice but to fight them, but for each one you cut down, you pave the way for many more to rise up and join the fight against you.

The Eldar drive home just how new and ignorant the human race is. They are far older, are more physically, mentally, and psychicly gifted. Humans can't comprehend their thought processes, or their motives. The only edge that mankind has is brute force, which makes us out to be the very barbarians that they say we are.

Nids are pure predators. There are no politics, there is no reasoning with them. They will either kill you, or be killed by you. It's as simple as that.

Necrons.... um, lets skip them for now.

Now we get to the Tau. The Tau represent the Imperium's greatest fear. That the time of mankind is at an end. As Mankind rose up and grew to dominance to replace the Eldar, the Tau could be the ones who finally overthrow Man as the dominant species. Sure it's a very different kind of scary than an Ork with an axe coming at your head, but it's still a very scary prospect. Hence them earning their place in the 40k setting.

[Rogue Star]

Ah... well that changes the scenario completely. But really not my answer. Again, the Eldar don't really do conquest. They barely have the numbers and strength to maintain what they have, let alone expand upon it.

You may want to read up on the Biel-tan Craftworld. While a specific Craftworld, they wipe out fledgling species as a matter of course.

[Oots]

What are your thoughts?

Best to be found by the Tau, pretty clearly. Better to be co-erced into membership of their empire than being exterminated, consumed alive or hauled off to some depraved space-elf's torture dungeon.

[sycopat]

An interesting thought game might be to imagine yourself as part of an intelligent but hitherto unknown (to 40K) alien civilisation. You suddenly have a God's Eye view of the galaxy and in depth details and history of all its other major civilisations. You're then told that it is completely inevitable and unavoidable that you will be discovered by one of the other civilisations / species in the galaxy and that you have the power to pick which one, but you DON'T have the power to change their more usual approach to dealing with aliens.

Looking at your species in in relation to the Tau, the Imperium, the Eldar and indeed any other race / civilisation, which would you prefer to be discovered by and why? You're not permitted to have suicidal tendencies or want a 'quick death'.

Your goals are survival first (so the largest number of your people not being dead), followed by quality of life (so readily accessible food and water supplies, a place to live in security, the freedom to raise a family, gainful employment of some sort, that sort of thing) followed by maintenance of your culture (so keeping your civilisation - language, norms, customs, ideologies etc - as close to how they were originally as possible).


EDIT

In response to an issue raised further down in this thread, I'm adding the following proviso:

you also have to imagine that your planet / civilisation has something that all the other truly factions want or need.

Question:

Are my people human? It's very important due to the Imperiums Xenophobia. If human, well in return for a tithe we get security and a fairly hands off approach as long as the tithe is paid. If not, Tau or Eldar dependent on what exactly they want. Eldar are more likely to allow my people to keep our culture intact, but also more likely to want something that requires us all dead. Tau seem to have a need to 'civilise' their allies, which throughout history has generally meant 'subjugate the natives in return for tea or beads'.