Dark elf 8th edition armybook suggestions

[kheirakh]

Hi!

If 8th edition dark elf book is coming out soon (in year 2013 maybe?), then I would like to see these things changed:

Models:
New plastic characters on foot and mounted on dark steed and cold ones
New plastic dark pegasus kit
New plastic manticore rider
New plastic dark riders
New plastic harpies
New plastic chariot
New plastic witch elves, executioners and black guard
New plastic cauldron of blood kit (chariot)
New palstic Avatar of Khaine (see below)

Rules:
Keep the eternal hatred

cheaper corsairs (hand bows should be 12" range)

cheaper dark riders

Cauldron of blood should be a support chariot with some basic support rules and some bound spells (same style as empire ones).

Assassins should be cheaper or they should have 4++ save as skaven assassins.

Manticore 5W and 5+ save.

New murderer steel giants (like in rulebook fluff) - Maybe they should make them Avatars of Khaine. Maybe a giant size model. 2+ save and 5++ save, MR(1). If it is a giant sized model, S7, T6, W5, it should have heroic killing blow rule. Unbreakable. 275-300 pts. If it would be an ogre sized model, then it should be 3 - 10 unit size, 2+ save and 5++ save (MR1), maybe normal killing blow S6, T5, W3. Unbreakable.

12-15 magic items (dark elves are more magical race than empire and orcs for example, so they should have more access to magical items. Same thing for high elves I hope.)

Some magic item which gives protection against shooting for characters and their monstorous mounts. Pendant of Khaeleth 50 pts.

Hydra 225 pts and add the spit shooting attack choise.

Shades to get poisoned attacks.

Dark magic a bit more powerful. Druchii sorcery should be +1 to cast.

Khainite characters and units to get magic items.

RBTs should be 80 pts.

What would you like to see?

[Dreadlordpaul]

Malekith being made worth while
Unit caps gone
Spearmen and Crossbows made better
Wizards get access to lore of beasts
Beastmasters get more monster options
Hero level beastmaster added
Tullaris gets heroic killing blow

[BigbyWolf]

The existing DE wishlist is probably the best place to look for this kind of thing: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...k-Elf-Wishlist

[Arnizipal]

The existing DE wishlist is probably the best place to look for this kind of thing: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...k-Elf-Wishlist

Thread is almost half a year old though...

[Mozzamanx]

Warriors to go up in cost and have Shields as standard gear. Like buggery do you get an Elf for less than a State Trooper.
Repeaters could probably justify a 1pt increase.
Perhaps the reintroduction of the City Guard as a new unit.
Assassins moved out to either Rare or Hero. Can probably use a price decrease to justify taking them.
Witch Elves go up a point.
Black Guard go up, but have the unit cap removed.
Repeater gets a firepower boost. Perhaps allow 2 solid shots and reworking the multi-shot as a small blast.
I don't like the Banner of Hag Graef being an auto-pick for Executioners. I would honestly remove it and reduce the Executioners slightly to compensate.
Hydra to go up significantly. Currently it probably justifies something like 230pts.
Introduce unridden Manticore and Chimerae as similar Beastmaster units.
No idea which items to keep, but I guarantee you the Pendant is either gone, 70+ points or an Arcane item.

Also, anyone remember that 6th Edition story about the slaves? How about that for a new unit? Perhaps include it as a unit of useless troopers, with a rule allowing the Elves to shoot at them. If they panic, they are removed and replaced with an area of Dangerous/Difficult Terrain, the same size as the original units footprint.

Magic needs a lot of looking into as I believe it is probably the most abusive aspect as it stands. Honestly, I think the best solution would be to make 'Power of Darkness' the Lore Attribute for Dark Magic. Every Dark Magic spell attempt has an extra D6 added to the casting total. This can absolutely cause a Miscast. I think it would also be fair not to include any Miscast-protection items. Dark Magic should be all about the bang, and bad consequences simply indicates an inferior Wizard.

[DaemonReign]

Warriors to go up in cost and have Shields as standard gear. Like buggery do you get an Elf for less than a State Trooper.

- Dark Elves do not have the same Detachment Rules (yeah the ones that are just incredibly good now)
That being said, I certainly agree that anyone arguing that Dark Elf Spearmen should be cheaper is quite mad.
Giving them a sheild and raising their cost 1-2 points would be all right I reckon.

Repeaters could probably justify a 1pt increase.

- At the very least, yes.

Assassins moved out to either Rare or Hero. Can probably use a price decrease to justify taking them.

- Don't know about price decrease (or increase for that matter), but they'll move to a slot for sure. As they should.

Witch Elves go up a point.

- Yeah, pretty much.

Black Guard go up, but have the unit cap removed.

- With no size cap or number [of units] cap (which I agree is boring, but fluffy) they would indeed have to go up conciderably.

Repeater gets a firepower boost. Perhaps allow 2 solid shots and reworking the multi-shot as a small blast.

- It's bad, yes. But think a slight decrease to cost is more likely. Not that I have anything against your idea as such.

I don't like the Banner of Hag Graef being an auto-pick for Executioners. I would honestly remove it and reduce the Executioners slightly to compensate.

- Executioners probably deserve the pointdrop either way.

Hydra to go up significantly. Currently it probably justifies something like 230pts.

- Assuming it gets some 'buff' on the way, sure. Otherwise this is comming on a bit too strong in my opinion, it'd be just fine just over ~200 points. Really.

Introduce unridden Manticore and Chimerae as similar Beastmaster units.

- Yeah why not. Anything goes.

No idea which items to keep, but I guarantee you the Pendant is either gone, 70+ points or an Arcane item.

- Yeah I guess it's the typical kind of item that a Designer just can't leave alone just to show everybody how clever he is.. Sort of like removing the Regen Banner for Graveguard. So many counters to this item, the one that really doesn't fit with 8th Ed would be the Sacrificial Dagger and the unlimited dice per spell cast...

Also, anyone remember that 6th Edition story about the slaves? How about that for a new unit? Perhaps include it as a unit of useless troopers, with a rule allowing the Elves to shoot at them. If they panic, they are removed and replaced with an area of Dangerous/Difficult Terrain, the same size as the original units footprint.

- This sounds far-fetched to me. Slaves of the Dark Elves would run toward almost any enemy with open arms and white handkercheifs held up high.. And assuming they're too shackled to do that we're basically talking about a (quite depressing) 'meat-wall' that shouldn't have an attack-value at all.. I just don't see this manifesting itself into something that adds something 'fun' to the army. Sorry. I may be mistaken though.

Magic needs a lot of looking into as I believe it is probably the most abusive aspect as it stands. Honestly, I think the best solution would be to make 'Power of Darkness' the Lore Attribute for Dark Magic. Every Dark Magic spell attempt has an extra D6 added to the casting total. This can absolutely cause a Miscast. I think it would also be fair not to include any Miscast-protection items. Dark Magic should be all about the bang, and bad consequences simply indicates an inferior Wizard.

- While I'd worry that adding an entire D6 to every casting attempt would be just slightly off the mark of 'balance' I do believe you're on to something interesting here. Bottom line is the rule as it stands currently is one of the more 'problematic' items on the slate for Dark Elves.

Just my 2c.

Btw, Dark Elves is my main 'nemesis' that almost always tables me.

[Odin]

Repeaters could probably justify a 1pt increase.

Yes. And then another one. And another one. That should just about do.

[The Low King]

N3rf dEm!!!!

[The Low King]

Hydras and their magic are my main issue.

Hydras a feel the SoM went in the right way, 220 points with no beast masters factored in. Add them and i would say probably closer to 250 points. Currently i would rather face a Ghorgon or a Sphinx than a hydra 7+d6 S5 attacks, 6 (it is that isnt it?) S3 AP attacks, Breath weapon, Regen and Scaly skin is very powerful.

Magic wise, remove their ability to throw so many dice at spells...or maybe a special rule that they can go over the limit but any doubles count as a miscast or something....

[tmarichards]

A general increase in points across the board is in order. Core choices up by 1-2 points each, Black Guard up 3-4pts each, shades up to 20pts each and the hydra up to 225 and no longer having Hatred on the gribbly itself.

Being able to throw more than 6 dice at a spell is an outdated and abusive mechanic that needs to go immediately as it is only bad for the game. I'm a big fan of each race having some sort of extra special rules for their casters, so I'd prefer to see a return to the 6th edition special rule of +1 to all casting rolls, which would still be very very good.

The Cauldron, probably the second most broken model in the entire game in my opinion, needs to be changed so that it no longer goes off automatically. I think it would work better as a rare choice with a choice of bound spells, similar to the change to the Casket.

The magic items could also do with a general points increase across the board. The Sacrificial Dagger need to go up to at least 65pts, or more preferably leave the game altogether. Lifetaker needs to go up, as does the Frenzy banner and the ASF banner. The Pendant needs to have a pts increase- doubled would be very fair- or at the very least be moved to an arcane slot to fit the fluff a little better. Maybe the Pendant and Black Amulet could have their points costs reversed?

[Don Zeko]

A general increase in points across the board is in order. Core choices up by 1-2 points each, Black Guard up 3-4pts each, shades up to 20pts each and the hydra up to 225 and no longer having Hatred on the gribbly itself.

Being able to throw more than 6 dice at a spell is an outdated and abusive mechanic that needs to go immediately as it is only bad for the game. I'm a big fan of each race having some sort of extra special rules for their casters, so I'd prefer to see a return to the 6th edition special rule of +1 to all casting rolls, which would still be very very good.

The Cauldron, probably the second most broken model in the entire game in my opinion, needs to be changed so that it no longer goes off automatically. I think it would work better as a rare choice with a choice of bound spells, similar to the change to the Casket.

The magic items could also do with a general points increase across the board. The Sacrificial Dagger need to go up to at least 65pts, or more preferably leave the game altogether. Lifetaker needs to go up, as does the Frenzy banner and the ASF banner. The Pendant needs to have a pts increase- doubled would be very fair- or at the very least be moved to an arcane slot to fit the fluff a little better. Maybe the Pendant and Black Amulet could have their points costs reversed?

Most of that sounds good to me. I think the Hydra doesn't need a huge points increase if it loses hatred - maybe 200 even? A modest points drop in dark riders and cold one knights would probably also be in order. The Khainite rule either needs to be abolished entirely or allow Masters and Dreadlords to become Khainite, with my preference being to ditch it entirely. I'm not sure exactly how to deal with assassins, but if they stay a unit upgrade they need to drop dramatically in effectiveness and points. Maybe give them the 5th edition statline (1 wound, 2 attacks), with KB and ASF for 40-50 points?

[Gorbad Ironclaw]

The Cauldron, probably the second most broken model in the entire game in my opinion, needs to be changed so that it no longer goes off automatically. I think it would work better as a rare choice with a choice of bound spells, similar to the change to the Casket.

Don't the new Empire wagons give off there buff automatically? Or are they actually bound spells as well? I haven't seen the book, but I imagine that would be a good clue as to what might happen.

Aside from that I think both the High Elf and the Dark Elf book really needs two things. First being usable Repeater Bolt Throwers. It's a crappy machine at about twice the price it needs to as it's priced for a completely different set of rules for a completely different game. And both of them should lose their "racial" special rule. ASF and Enternal Hatred are both silly, don't fit and makes both armies a bit wonky to work with. Just scrap them and develop the armies from there.

[Lord Dan]

Agreed with Tom's points above, pretty much across-the-board point increases are in order. Assassins should be characters again, spearmen need to be enough points to justify them coming with shields standard, and the cap on black guard needs to be removed.

[Bikhu]

Points increases for spearmen, repeaters, witchelves, and blackguard seem quite likely given what we have seen in other 8th ed releases so far. I would also think that assassins going to character choice is likely, and would improve them for both fun and gameplay. I would honestly be very surprised if DE kept Power of Darkness and the ability to throw more than six dice at a spell. Both of those abilities seem very out of line with 8th edition and the VC book is at least one data point indicating some attempt on GW's part to reign in the magic domination effects of 7th.

I agree with posters above that the Hydra should lose hatred and go to about 200 points. Or perhaps lose hatred and stay at current point value but the handlers are not included in that point cost.

The pendant needs to be thrown in the abyss or move to an arcane item. Currently it is too much of an easy crutch for the DE player and a frustrating fun reducer for the DE player's opponent. (On a side note, I wonder if GW is of the mindset of mitigating the ability to create unkillable characters in general, no solid evidence of this that I can think of but it sounds about right for some reason)

Surprisingly, I have never had to face a cauldron of blood, though I have seen it in action. It is very good and I can see it losing its ability to offer a variety of always work buffs, on the other hand we see the continuing existence of always work buffs in the new Empire book.

Make the light cavalry option worth taking and drop coldones by a point just like the empire knights. Repeater Boltthrower should drop in points too.

Too cheap troops with hatred, that damn pendant, and over the top magic are my main complaints against the DE army. Being able to get Mindrazor off too consistently and too easily on a charge turn is just annoying to face (oh look, I total powered Mindrazor on 8 dice, looks like I strike first and reroll to hit with 41 spearmen attacks at WS4 and Str9...fun huh)

[Drasanil]

Here's my list of things I would change.

General:

-Get rid of Eternal Hatred, put back in Hatred High Elves. Scrap Khainites.

Heroes:

-Dread Lords and Nobles cheaper. T3 is not a good thing to be in the era of step up.
-(High) Sorceresses a tiny bit cheaper. Get rid of PoD and Unlimited Dice. Put in only miscasts on Triple 6s to represent the fact they're accustomed to channeling large amounts of dangerous magic. Access to all BRB lores, Dhar is using the eight winds willy-nilly so why wouldn't DE have access to all eight of those winds?
-Either move to Heroes with Built in 4+ ward (step up again!) or a return to their 5th edd flavour. 1W 2A unit upgrade with ASF and KB ~25-35pts.
-Hags and Assassins (if still heroes), get access to non-armour magic items. Cauldron, 1 reasonable AoE buff, a couple of bound spells.


Troops:

-8 points for Warriors with shields built in. 12 for Crossbows with Shields. Corsairs for 9 with handbows built in. Dark Riders drop to 15-16 base. Harpies moved to special.
-Witch Elves and Black Guard go up a point each. Execs and Knights go down one.
-Hydra keep as is but boost to 200. Bolt Throwers... ugh... drop to ~75. Make them 4 S4 no AS shots. Makes them useful against monsters and infantry/cavalry you'd want to shoot at.


Magic items: Both High and Dark should receive a few more than standard.
-Executioner's Axe: +2S, no-ASL, Two-handed, Heroic Killing Blow 65 points.
-Chillblade. Budget Runefang. Rolls of 6 to hit wound automatically no AS. 40-50 points.
-Whip of Agony. As is, monstrous cav and Large monsters must re-roll successful roll to hits. 35pts

-Armour of Living Death. Like the concept but not iffy on execution. +1T, regain 1 wound at the start of each friendly turn, cannot be destroyed, same cost (60). Fits the fluff, gives you a survivable Genenral with out PoK crutch and abuse.
-Cloak of Hag Graef. Make it against all attacks. 50 points.
-Blood Armour. Keep as is.

-Black Amulet. Drop to 55.
-Pendant of Khaleth. Sorceresses only. Still good but not really abusive.
-Ring of Darkness drop to 30.

-Focus Familiar. Keep, I like it.
-Stabby Knife. Keep at 25, sacrifice a model to re-roll one casting dice instead.

-Crystal of Midnight. Keep as is.

-Banner of Nagarythe. Keep as is. Allow bearer to take his normal allowance of magic items to represent the Witch King's favour.
-ASF Banner. Boost to 50.
-Banner of Cold Blood. Boost to 50, Cold Blooded all the time. Knights only.

[Don Zeko]

Here's my list of things I would change.

General:

-Get rid of Eternal Hatred, put back in Hatred High Elves. Scrap Khainites.

Losing eternal hatred is bigger debuff than anything else on your list. If you go this route (and i would really prefer not to), then if you'll need point decreases, not increases, across the board.

[Drasanil]

Losing eternal hatred is bigger debuff than anything else on your list. If you go this route (and i would really prefer not to), then if you'll need point decreases, not increases, across the board.

Dark Elves did fine before they had it, and it was frankly overkill that just put in because high elves got ASF. I remember I played the crummy 6th edd army. Even with the revision the price-line was similar. Fighty heroes would be noticeably cheaper (and able to support units like witch elves and execs) and assassins worth using as unit buffs again. Whilst Black Guard wouldn't miss it. The list wouldn't need points cuts across the board.

[vcassano]

Dark Elves did fine before they had it, and it was frankly overkill that just put in because high elves got ASF. I remember I played the crummy 6th edd army. Even with the revision the price-line was similar. Fighty heroes would be noticeably cheaper (and able to support units like witch elves and execs) and assassins worth using as unit buffs again. Whilst Black Guard wouldn't miss it. The list wouldn't need points cuts across the board.

Dark Elves were a notoriously weak book prior to the introduction of Eternal Hatred in 7th. Obviously it was not the only reason they got a big boost, but it is one of the most signficiant improvements the army received. Personally, I like it. But it is currently undercosted.

[Drasanil]

Dark Elves were a notoriously weak book prior to the introduction of Eternal Hatred in 7th. Obviously it was not the only reason they got a big boost, but it is one of the most signficiant improvements the army received.

No doubt dark elves were fairly borked to start off with in 6th. But the revision [and extra items from the SoC] did a lot to put them on an even footing with other books. Eternal Hatred was overkill IMO, and part of the 7th edd bad habit of slapping on army wide rules for it's own sake.

[Don Zeko]

Dark Elves did fine before they had it, and it was frankly overkill that just put in because high elves got ASF. I remember I played the crummy 6th edd army. Even with the revision the price-line was similar. Fighty heroes would be noticeably cheaper (and able to support units like witch elves and execs) and assassins worth using as unit buffs again. Whilst Black Guard wouldn't miss it. The list wouldn't need points cuts across the board.

I played Dark Elves back in 6th Edition too, and I really don't see where this is coming from. Before the revision, DE had, for example, 10 point spearmen and 10 point corsairs without hatred. After the revision, we had 8 point spearmen and 10 point corsairs without hatred, which is basically what you're suggesting we go back to. That brings us to the power level of an average 6th Edition army book, which is probably weaker than where Wood Elves are now. If your models are all low toughness, low strength, and high point value, you need to have something else to make things work out. This suggestion is just going crazy with the nerf bat. It reminds me of the fellow in that old thread on the subject that suggested DE spearmen should be as expensive as High Elf Spearmen, despite the fact that HE spears have ASF, fight in an extra rank, and are probably still overpriced. The goal of this exercise should be a balanced army book, not karmic retribution for the OP book we've had since 7th.