Dark elf 8th edition armybook suggestions

[Don Zeko]

Dark Elves did fine before they had it, and it was frankly overkill that just put in because high elves got ASF. I remember I played the crummy 6th edd army. Even with the revision the price-line was similar. Fighty heroes would be noticeably cheaper (and able to support units like witch elves and execs) and assassins worth using as unit buffs again. Whilst Black Guard wouldn't miss it. The list wouldn't need points cuts across the board.

I played Dark Elves back in 6th Edition too, and I really don't see where this is coming from. Before the revision, DE had, for example, 10 point spearmen and 10 point corsairs without hatred. After the revision, we had 8 point spearmen and 10 point corsairs without hatred, which is basically what you're suggesting we go back to. That brings us to the power level of an average 6th Edition army book, which is probably weaker than where Wood Elves are now. If your models are all low toughness, low strength, and high point value, you need to have something else to make things work out. This suggestion is just going crazy with the nerf bat. It reminds me of the fellow in that old thread on the subject that suggested DE spearmen should be as expensive as High Elf Spearmen, despite the fact that HE spears have ASF, fight in an extra rank, and are probably still overpriced. The goal of this exercise should be a balanced army book, not karmic retribution for the OP book we've had since 7th.

[Drasanil]

I played Dark Elves back in 6th Edition too, and I really don't see where this is coming from. Before the revision, DE had, for example, 10 point spearmen and 10 point corsairs without hatred. After the revision, we had 8 point spearmen and 10 point corsairs without hatred, which is basically what you're suggesting we go back to.

8 Point spears is pretty fair. Empire pay 6 for theirs with shields. Maybe with heavy armour stand too to compensate for the lack of detachments. I also suggested 9 point corsairs with extra hand weapons and handbows built in. It's pretty much on level with the 8th edition books. Which would also be compensated for in part by cheaper lords/heroes, useful assassins, cheaper bolts throwers, dark riders and knights.

That brings us to the power level of an average 6th Edition army book, which is probably weaker than where Wood Elves are now. If your models are all low toughness, low strength, and high point value, you need to have something else to make things work out.

Post-revision dark elves were pretty decent. I don't know where you're getting this. The book would have support units. Expecting core infantry to power their way through enemy units unsupported seems a bit much, unless you're talking about really high end stuff like Chaos Warriors.

This suggestion is just going crazy with the nerf bat.

And you're getting into hysterics. Eternal Hatred was a crutch and a band-aid.

It reminds me of the fellow in that old thread on the subject that suggested DE spearmen should be as expensive as High Elf Spearmen, despite the fact that HE spears have ASF, fight in an extra rank, and are probably still overpriced.

Again hysterics. They'd still be cheaper than HE spears and I'm pretty sure HE will lose ASF in their next book. I could see HE staying at 9 points for extra rank and heavy armour, like they used to get in 5th.

The goal of this exercise should be a balanced army book, not karmic retribution for the OP book we've had since 7th.

If you say so. But it sounds to me like you've got a bad case of the 'I'm entitled to my entitlements.'

[Don Zeko]

Post-revision dark elves were pretty decent. I don't know where you're getting this. The book would have support units. Expecting core infantry to power their way through enemy units unsupported seems a bit much, unless you're talking about really high end stuff like Chaos Warriors....And you're getting into hysterics. Eternal Hatred was a crutch and a band-aid....Again hysterics....If you say so. But it sounds to me like you've got a bad case of the 'I'm entitled to my entitlements.'

First of all, 8-point Dark elf spearmen with eternal hatred are hardly going to power through enemy units unsupported, and I don't expect them too. But the real issue here is that you don't seem to understand how powerful re-rolls to hit are. In the first round of combat (and in my experience, probably 60% of combats are over after the first round with DE), Eternal Hatred improves the damage output of Dark Elf troops by between 30% and 50%. So losing it is only slightly less of a debuff than losing a point of strength would be in most combats. You can't get around this by talking about how powerful the amended 6th edition book was, since 6th Edition books were all weaker than the average 8th edition book and far weaker than any 7th edition book.

[The Low King]

Rerolls to hit are too powerful. Either increase their price or remove hatred.

[Hoshiyami]

8 Point spears is pretty fair. Empire pay 6 for theirs with shields. Maybe with heavy armour stand too to compensate for the lack of detachments. I also suggested 9 point corsairs with extra hand weapons and handbows built in. It's pretty much on level with the 8th edition books. Which would also be compensated for in part by cheaper lords/heroes, useful assassins, cheaper bolts throwers, dark riders and knights.

Isn't it tricky to compare them to empire spearmen? If I played empire and fielded them I'm pretty sure I wouldn't pay for their shields.

Post-revision dark elves were pretty decent. I don't know where you're getting this. The book would have support units. Expecting core infantry to power their way through enemy units unsupported seems a bit much, unless you're talking about really high end stuff like Chaos Warriors.

People expect expensive core infantry to do something against cheap enemy units, yes... it's their fault?

[Drasanil]

You can't get around this by talking about how powerful the amended 6th edition book was, since 6th Edition books were all weaker than the average 8th edition book and far weaker than any 7th edition book.

My point is you're looking at one thing and saying OMG nerf! The changes I proposed have to be taken holistically and were done with the intention of putting the book somewhere between the 6th eddition and 7th books. Which is where the new 8th books seem to be lining up. For dark elves [unfortunately] that does mean something akin to a net loss of power, because honestly 7th made them OP as Karma for 6th borking them.

[zak]

Having played DE since 5th I seem to have a different memory to you. The revision in points did little to assist DE and in no way made them on par with most of the other books. Eternal Hatred gave them character and an the offensive buff they needed. I think the 7th edition book just got the point costs wrong. The Hydra was too cheap and should never have got hatred. At 200 points without hatred the Hydra would still be good. Warriors and x-bows need to go up by a point (x-bows maybe by 2). The Cold Ones were given great models, but were too expensive and were rarely taken. I hope like other cavalry in 8th the points cost are dropped. Reaper Bolt throwers need to be reduced to 75 points. Certain magic items either need to be buried or get a price hike (I think we all know the culprits here). I like the idea of more monsters for the handlers. Unridden Cold Ones as a pack sounds great.

[Drasanil]

People expect expensive core infantry to do something against cheap enemy units, yes... it's their fault?

And pretty much all core infantry got more expensive. The exception being undead, because they were over priced to begin with. Dark elves would still have an edge. Empire swords are 7. DE at 8 isn't unreasonable. Throw in heavy armour too and it's borderline cheap.

Having played DE since 5th I seem to have a different memory to you. The revision in points did little to assist DE and in no way made them on par with most of the other books.

Memory is a tricky thing. I did just fine with post-revision dark elves in 6th.

Eternal Hatred gave them character and an the offensive buff they needed.

I think Eternal Hatred took away some of their character and made them into a bunch of thoughtless hateful haters who hate because they hate. I've been playing since 5th edd too and dark elves used to be professional disciplined warriors, the only time their emotions really got in the way of doing their job was against high elves due to intense enmity. Otherwise, they may be malicious and spiteful, but other people's/races didn't provoke that sort of emotion response.

[theunwantedbeing]

Empire spearmen are 6pts each with sheilds.
Currently dark elf spearmen are 7pts each with the same equipment.

They get +1 weaponskill, +2 inititative, +1 leadership, +1 movement and hatred, however they do not have a detachment rule.

The extra weaponskill is a boost.
Extra inititative is fairly meaningless in a unit that has to be taken in large amounts
Extra leadership is again fairly meaningless due to inspiring presence
Extra movement is also fairly meaningless on a unit that is built to take a charge
Hatred is a bonus, as it's re-rolls to hit which provides a big benefit when combined with the higher initiative and weaponskill.

Making them cost a point more is reasonable but ultimately not necessary.
Making them cost 9pts with sheilds is not reasonable as they are not worth 3pts a model over a standard empire spearmen is.

Remember the empire does have access to things that it is expected to see within the army.
The War Altar/Warrior Priests to grant the unit hatred
Hurricanum/Luminark to grant +1 to hit/a 6+ ward

While these do not come directly out of the cost for the spearmen, nor are the guaranteed to be on the board, they nonetheless provide some benefit and spearmen and most units are expected to benefit from at least one of them. With the dark elves the only boost is the Cauldren of Blood and for the most part you would expect it not to benefit spearmen, but instead benefit some more elite unit.

9pts DE spearmen is daft unless you are going to give them heavy armour and/or armour piercing attacks.

[Knifeparty]

Ok, I understand that DE are powerful, but honestly most of these nerf suggestions will make DE completely neutered like the 6th edition book.

Eternal Hatred is the reason that DE work. It makes the army, without it they will be garbage. Eternal Hatred is fluffy and useful. It has to stay.

Warriors and Crossbows are fine. Anyone who has played this game for long enough knows that St 3 sucks, and doesnt win you games. Keep their points value.

Black Guard should have unit cap removed.

Executioners Drop by 1 point.

Witch Elves go up by 1 or 2 points gain ASF

Cauldron Becomes Chariot, or gets pulled by Witches or Executioners

Dark Riders go down by a few points.

Corsairs go down by 2 points, repeater pistols get 12" range, armour piercing and brace of pistols special rules for +3 points per model.

Cold One Knights go down by 2 points

Bolt Throwers get massive damage increase in some way. keep points value the same. I hate it when people spam artillery.

Hydras go up to 220 points

New Moster in Rare choice possibly

Possibly Dark Pegasus Rider cavalry, or Manticore Cavalry for new units.

Possibly Assassin units in rare.

A Carnifex Lord or Hero choice to make fluffy Khaine Lists.

Dark Magic become super devastating. Remove the ability to throw more than 6 dice.

8 Magic items:

Armour of Darkness - 40 points

Driach of Dark Power makes a return- 50 points

Pendant stays- 50 points

Ring of Hotek- 40 points (only affects the unit that the bearer is in)

Executioner Axe- 70 points (doubles strength and has heroic killing blow)

Sacrifical Dagger- 50 points

Tomb of Furion -35 points (makes you loremaster)

Hydra Banner -75 points

[The Low King]

...Tzeench was here.....

That doesnt seem to make them any weaker.....there are as many points decreases/improvements as there are increases

[Drasanil]

9pts DE spearmen is daft unless you are going to give them heavy armour and/or armour piercing attacks.

Just as a clarification since this seemed to be aimed at me. I suggested 8 with shields built in and possibly heavy armour too if they suffer too much for it.

[Glenn87]

Maybe we should take a look at what makes DE's really OP (to some):

- Throwing more then 6 Dice at any spell
- Having free acces to Power of Darkness
- the Sac. Dagger
- Pendand of Khaeleth
- Cheap Hydra

Problem 1 will probally just dissapear, and problem 2 too. (I expect PoD to become the sig. spell, so they'll HAVE to take Dark Magic and sacrifice another spell for it.
Problem 3-4 will also be fixed, because either they'll dissapear, or they'll get a HUGE point increase.
Problem 5, the Hydra, we all know is going to get a point increase.

I don't think that spearmen should get an increase. Corsairs should get a decrease.
Spearmen and corsairs both have light armour, and where spearmen get spear and shield, corsairs get a Sea Dragon Cloak. Both should be around the same point cost (7-8ish WITH shield and extra hand weapon build in). Maybe give them standard Handbows, wich'll count as an extra hand weapon.
RxB's could raise 1pt perhaps, and Witch Elves could raise 1-2. Executioners should stay the same or maybe drop a point. Just think about the other 8th armies' elite units: Grave Guard are 11, Black Orcs are 12, Ogres can't really be compared as they've got a MI statline, Tomb Guards are 11. Don't know how much greatswords cost.


The main problem with DE's is their abuse of magic. With the 6+ dice, the dagger and Power of Darkness spell gone/fixed, I think DE's will be alot less OP, but still able to be competitive. Another trend with previous army books is that most of the time you HAVE to have a wizard with the Book's own Magic lore. (Ogres MUST have Great Maw, O&G Can't choose any other, VC need a model with the lore of the Vampires, don't know about TK's, Empire is an exeption). Maybe make Shadow only available to a Lord level wizard.

About the beastmaster/Monsters, maybe something like a squig herd-ish thing:
standard 2 beastmasters (8-10 point range each), and you can add a 3th one.
options:
You MUST choose one of the following:
Hydra +200 points (no eternal hatred, nor any other army rules)
Manticore +xxx points
Chimerae +xxx points
.... any other cool monster.

[Bikhu]

I am willing to admit that I may be off-base in some way, but I really do not see how spearmen are fine at their current point cost. 1 more point of movement and 2 more points of initiative seem significant, though I will admit they are not super buff. Mov 5 is helpful on any infantry unit, even one that is intended to take a charge. It allows them to get into position after initial set up easier, which, in my experience, can be quite important. It also allows them a larger charge threat range when necessary, and there are times when you will want to charge your spearmen at units that do not want to be in combat with big blocks of anything (like skirmishers).

Having higher initiative is helpful for spells (obviously), but it has also made a difference in many many combats to which I have been a party. Attacking first means you have a chance to take away some attacks back. I know that with only str 3 those attacks may bounce off of many tough units, but even against my horde of 40 dwarf GW warriors it has made a difference. My horde was down to 32 or 33 after repeater xbow volleys, and 41 rerolled str 3 attacks will kill 8 5+ armor save dwarfs on average and he rolled a bit above average to leave me with only 22 dwarfs, taking away 8 attacks from me. That seems significant.

Add those two stat bonuses with +1 WS, ld9, and eternal hatred, and combine that with the greater importance of infantry in 8th, and I do not see how DE spearmen are not worth at least a 1 point increase in cost. Though I do agree that corsairs should be the same point cost as spearmen.

[theunwantedbeing]

Though I do agree that corsairs should be the same point cost as spearmen.

Cheaper Corsairs? Sweet! I would adore 8pt corsairs, or should they be 7pts?

[DragonArmy]

Whoa. It's not that I disagree with changing some of the broken parts of DE, but take them away and your left with very mediocre choices.

We are still talking about T3 S3 units. 7-8 point spearmen without hatred sounds not worth it in comparison to most other armies.


I don't think people realize how all their nerfs would add up.

[Bikhu]

Cheaper Corsairs? Sweet! I would adore 8pt corsairs, or should they be 7pts?

Hah!...I totally forgot about the Sea Dragon cloak, more some reason I just thought they had extra hand weapon and slaver rule, my mistake. Not sure how I blanked on that given how many times I have faced them. So no, I suppose 8 point corsairs would be underpriced and 10 points seems about right. I also face them in horde formation all the time, so spears and extra hand weapon have almost the same effect (10 more attacks). On the other hand, I still maintain that 7 point spearmen with shields is too cheap for their stats and eternal hatred.

[Don Zeko]

On the other hand, I still maintain that 7 point spearmen with shields is too cheap for their stats and eternal hatred.

I concur. 8 or 9 points would be perfectly reasonable, so long as they keep hatred.

[kheirakh]

I would like that Dark elves keep the eternal hatered rule, because it makes them stand out from the other armies and that is the thing that makes them so scary. Some people said that they don't need this rule, but they really need this rule.
8 pts spearmen would be reasonable price for spearmen with shields.
12 pts crossbow elves with shields is also very reasonable.
11-12 pts corsairs with two hand weapons and repeater hand bows as basic would make them worthwhile.
Dark riders should be 20 pts with RXBs. 15 pts without. 16 pts with shields.
Harpies should be moved to special slots and make them 16 pts with scout rule.
Make shades 20 pts with RXBs and additional hand weapons + poisoned attacks.
Black guard should be 14 pts with their unit cap removed.
Executioners should be 12 pts and 50 pts magical standard added + magical items for champion.
Witch elves should be 12 pts with always strike first rule added.
Cold one chariot 90 pts.
Cold one knights 24 pts.
War hydra 225 pts. Add spit weapon choise.
RBTs 90 pts, multiple shooting should be changed to small blast with S4 AS-2.
New unit: Avatar of Khaine (giant sized model). M6, Ws 10, Bs-, S 7, T6, W5, I9, A5, Ld10. Terror, Large target, Eternal hatered, Heroic killing blow, Magical attacks, Unbreakable, Unstable. 2+ save and 5++ save, MR(1). 325 pts.
Assassins should be characters with 4++ save as basic for the same price.
If they keep PoK, then it should indeed be moved to arcane items and be 50 pts.
Sacrifisical dagger should be 35 pts.
Lifetaker could be 4xshots for the same price. Or 2xshots with sniper rule for the same price.
An item that grants 4++ save against shooting for the bearer and the monstorous mount would be nice (50pts).
Druchii sorcery should be +1 to cast.
Magic: Combine chill wind and doombolt - 5+ to cast D6 S4 hits (+ shooting modifier), 10+ to cast D6+3 S5 hits (with shooting modifier), 15 + to cast 2D6 S6 hits (with shooting modifier)
I don't know about the other spells, but boosts are needed.
(Games Workshop is free to playtest and use these rules )

[Why]

We are still talking about T3 S3 units. 7-8 point spearmen without hatred sounds not worth it in comparison to most other armies.


I don't think people realize how all their nerfs would add up.

8 point elf spearmen not worth it. Wow my Eternal guard must be worse than anything else in the entire game x2.

Honestly, 8 point spearmen without hatred is not great, make them 8 points with hatred and they are all good, even at 9 points they are still pretty good.