Yes ASL basically gives you Initiative 0, you might be confused with when you have both ASF and ASL in which case they cancel out and you fight in initiative order.
Yes ASL basically gives you Initiative 0, you might be confused with when you have both ASF and ASL in which case they cancel out and you fight in initiative order.
To paraphrase Harry: 8th edition and Storm of Magic - BRING IT ON!
That is indeed what I was doing, thank you.Originally Posted by Valaraukar
I can see why DE players would view Executioners as less desirable than Black Guard, as one of their significant advantages is taken away with gw's giving ASL. The two DE players in my group and club never field them.
I think Exec's do have their uses, no unit cap is a big plus, and the reliable S6 strike is pretty powerful. you can boost them with the CoB ward save to aid survivability, or just take large enough number to soak up the damage and give them +1A to really decimate pretty much anything they touch.
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Executioners are terrible. They do not even compare favorably with other similar elite GW troops in other books. The Cauldron kind of makes them playable, but Black Guard with the AP banner is better at cracking armor and witches are actually superior at killing monsters. And quite literally everything in the book is better when Mind Razor is tossed into the mix. They are one of two units in the book that are actually underpowered, the manticore hero being the other.
You mean despite all the maths on the previous pages proving that they win against both Hammerers and Greatswords?
You're going to use them in a horde, same for both units.
Both units will be 40 strong as that's a good horde size.
They all "suffer" from ASL so all fight at the same time.
Exes vs Hammerers
Exes kill 19.38, Hammerers kill 12.92
Exes kill 11.70, Hammerers kill 9.00
Exes kill 7.95, Hammerers kill 4.13
At this point there are 19.95 executionairs left and 0.97 Hammerers left.
Exes vs Greatswords
Exes kill 22.96, Greatswords kill 12.92
Exes kill 18.72, Greatswords kill 7.52
At this point all 40 Greatswords are gone and there are 19.64 Executionairs left.
Hammerers vs Greatswords
Hammerers kill 17.22, Greatswords kill 10.33
Hammerers kill 17.04, Greatswords kill 7.93
Hammerers kill 12.63, Greatswords kill 2.24
All the Greatswords are again, gone and there are 19.5 Hammerers left.
So yeah, Executionairs win this hands down due to hatred, ws5 and St6
Greatswords struggle being a measly ws4 and only a puny st5.
They are also the weakest and most easily killed, along with not being Stubborn.
Which makes sense as they all cost basically the same and the highest damage troops should be the weakest and most easily broken when beaten.
Plan B kill it with fire
Meat is Murder tasty, tasty murder
I think executioners are about right myself, as long as you make characters able to join them (not just witch elves), and give them decent access to magic standards and champion items (like black guard). I don't think you can compare them to hammerers fairly but I don't think you can consider mind razor too much either.
Other changes I'd want to see
Assassin has decent enough rules mechanics but I tihnk he should be able to hide ni the shadows during combat instead of attacking. Give him a chance of success (fixed dice roll or I test for example) and let him move to a friendly non engaged unit within 6" if successful - alows the enemy to keep surprised and justifies the high points cost. Points count for special not characters also.
Hydra needs to come into SoM points costs - 230-250 seems fair given the handlers and hatred.
Black guard - personally I think the unit cap of 20 is a good rule and they should be kept at the relatviely cheap cost (but I'm sure from a model selling perspecitve the unit cap will go - in which case costs should rise a little).
Cauldron - Hopefully an option to take without a character to babysit (or the character is included and its a rare, like casket of souls). Slight points cost to account for this (+20 points).
Magic - Dark magic should be expensive to cast but powerful. Imo keep power of darkness as a signature spell and have all other spells with power level at least 12+. However, power level (accounting for cost) needs to be in line with vampires and ogres. Lore attirbute should enforce the idea of trying to grab power - successfully cast spell allows you to steal a dispel dice (not sure if that's same as goblin one though?) or gives +1 to cast cumulatively?
Warriors need to go up 1 point.
Corsairs need to have handbows count as extra hand weapon and cost 12 each with this. Frenzy banner probably has to go (but with shooting and 2a you have a very flexible core unit anyway).
In an ideal world options for a cult of slaanesh army but I can't see that one happening.
668 - the neighbour of the beast.
The complications come in that DE can buff their executioners with the cauldron- typically a 5++ ward, but possibly an extra attack to benefit from hatred in the first phase. The hammerers and greatswords, on the other hand, will most likely be buffed by shooting, trying to reduce the executioners numbers so that they will lose the battle of attrition against other hordes. They also have the benefit of being able to add resilient heroes to their big investment unlike executioners, who can only add unarmoured t3 heroes to their unit.
Personally, I think the executioners points cost is fine as is. It would be nice if there was a way to get a more resilient character in the unit, either letting some characters upgrade to Khainite, or letting hags take talismans and enchanted items as well as temple gifts.
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When are Excecutioners going to be beaten in 1 on 1 combat? The only time I can see this happening is (possibly) flail wielding marauders (another horrifically under priced unit), a couple of HE units and another unit of excecutioners. Everything else either cannot put out enugh damage, or will be suffering those effectively guarenteed 22+ casualties in the first round of combat. At best you have to hope to beat them by attrition, but against 4 of them any troops likely to do this are going to get chopped down at a phenomenal rate - possibly losing 40-50 troops over the course of 2 game turns.
EDIT: Ogres might have the power too, but losing 7+ ogres in the opening combat round is still going to hurt.
Member of J.A.D.E.DTrying to convince Warseer that GW are anything less than perfect is like trying to teach a horde of zombies that lettuce is a perfectly acceptable alternative to brains.
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What are these other similar GW troops that make them look so bad? I'd say they're marginally worse than bestigors, but need less babysitting (Ld8, and they can get stubborn without a character). Better than graveguard, tomb guard, probably better than greatswords, maybe worse value than hammerers, but not by too much there. Worse value than bloodletters, but bloodletters are acknowledged as underpriced.
Executioners look bad beside other choices in their own book. They're a very good unit, and are excellent when you factor in the cauldron boosting them. Black guard and witch elves will get worse in the next book. That will fix the main issue with executioners.
A Swordmaster horde rapes them utterly, killing off 30 before the executionairs have had a chance to swing.
Chaos Warriors can do a lot of damage, basic halberd warriors will kill 17 easily enough, suffering 15 wounds in return.....those executionairs just lost and aren't steadfast.
Or instead of fighting them head on you could flank them.
Or just shoot/magic them a bit first so they aren't getting the full 31 attacks on you.....
Making your own horde toughness 7 helps too as the damage they inflict drops to a paultry 9 wounds.
Fighting them 1 vs 1 with a unit that doesn't have the ability to re-roll to hit and doesn't really heavily outnumber them or do much in the way of damage is a bad idea though.
Plan B kill it with fire
Meat is Murder tasty, tasty murder
It's almost like you didn't bother to read my whole post
You mean those "basic halberd warriors" that cost 1/3 again more than an excecutioner? I would expect the mto do a hell of a lot more damage than 2 additional wounds, but why waste facts on a perfectly good argument?
Flank a Mv 5 unit 1 on 1, what happens if the Excecutioners decide they want to flank you?
You're not quite getting the "1 on 1" thing here are you. And pretty much any buff/shooting you can do, the DEs can also do.
Stunning logic - but these are similarly priced units fulfilling (or at least suppose to be filling) a similar role in a different army.
Member of J.A.D.E.DTrying to convince Warseer that GW are anything less than perfect is like trying to teach a horde of zombies that lettuce is a perfectly acceptable alternative to brains.
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I've never understood why in math hammer, people neglect basic tactics. You say executioners are underpriced and place them against greatswords without using greatswords how they should be used.
For example, 40 executioners vs 40 greatswords. Depending on the tactical situation, it would be easy to swift reform and walk up as a 5x8 block of greatswords, eat the hatred round with less attacks and then reform wide. Or hell, stay with a compact formation the entire time and watch the executioners fight for half the game with an exceptionally wide formation that allows for easy charges.
By my math it'll take 4 rounds of combat to kill the greatswords if they are 5 frontage giving plenty of time to countercharge.
Yes, greatswords are going to lose no matter what BUT fighting higher ws, armor negating infantry isn't they job. At least IMO
You seem to be ignoring the fact that DEs have both far superior and far cheaper core warriors than your empire - if you are lucky all your counter charging troops will already be locked in combat with otherr troops.
EDIT: After 3 combat rounds the (40) great swords will have roughly 2 models left, the (40) excecutioners will still have about 30 left - bring on the next fodder.
Last edited by shelfunit.; 10-05-2012 at 19:51.
Member of J.A.D.E.DTrying to convince Warseer that GW are anything less than perfect is like trying to teach a horde of zombies that lettuce is a perfectly acceptable alternative to brains.
Lest we forget
And you seem to be ignoring the drastically more effective war machines that empire brings to the table. A 1 on 1 fight between executioners and greatswords with 0 support to either side will never happen in game. Furthermore, how about I swift reform to a stubborn minimum width conga. The executioners never kill the greatswords and neither unit gives up any points.
And you seem to be forgetting the multitude of warmachine hunters DEs can bring to the table. Harpies, Dark riders, shades, Reapater bolt throwers, magic - if you don't go first you will have essentially a single turn of shooting before you are charged or you need to prioritise other targets.
EDIT: And who could forget the CoB 5+ wardsave a unit like excecutioners will be getting
Last edited by shelfunit.; 10-05-2012 at 20:02.
Member of J.A.D.E.DTrying to convince Warseer that GW are anything less than perfect is like trying to teach a horde of zombies that lettuce is a perfectly acceptable alternative to brains.
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So?You mean those "basic halberd warriors" that cost 1/3 again more than an excecutioner? I would expect the mto do a hell of a lot more damage than 2 additional wounds, but why waste facts on a perfectly good argument?
Since when was damage output in optimal conditions the only thing that counted towards point cost?
Plan B kill it with fire
Meat is Murder tasty, tasty murder
As a unit specificallty designed to kill the opposition in close combat quite a lot.
Member of J.A.D.E.DTrying to convince Warseer that GW are anything less than perfect is like trying to teach a horde of zombies that lettuce is a perfectly acceptable alternative to brains.
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Ignoring their extra resistance to stat based spells and ranged fire? (T4 and 4+ armor go a long way)
I guess we are simply not going to agree. Executioners in any other book would be decent. In the DE, there are WAY too many other things to spend points on. Furthermore, optimal conditions for the Executioners will obviously favor them. I would not suggest throwing GS willy nilly into a block you know is much better than them.
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EDIT: Cauldren of blood ward saves, lower opposition numbers, equally good magic. CWs will be far lower in number on the battle field and when faced with the average minimum of 40 armour piercing RXB shots coming your way every turn that's about 5 less warriors a turn to deal with once they do get into combat.
.
That is the whole point of the majority of non-DE players - just because in the DE book they are not the best choice does not mean they are not spectacularly good compared to other army books. Optimal conditions for the excecutions are being in combat against non-HEs and marauders. The internal balence of whatever new DE book when it eventually comes out is secondary to the balence between the DE book and all the other books. I agree that you wouldn't want to throw GSs into combat against an opponent that is much better than them - against DEs however an Empire player has little to no choice - he has nothing better than the excecutioners to put into combat (possibly demi-griffs now, but they will still be shredded).
Last edited by shelfunit.; 11-05-2012 at 07:20.
Member of J.A.D.E.DTrying to convince Warseer that GW are anything less than perfect is like trying to teach a horde of zombies that lettuce is a perfectly acceptable alternative to brains.
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