Dark elf 8th edition armybook suggestions

[Bikhu]

Why exactly do you feel their current cost is balanced?

I could be wrong, but I don't think he was being serious. At least, I can't imagine he was serious with most of that post. Casters gaining one extra spell per level and keeping the ability to throw over six dice at a spell along with Power of Darkness and Dark Magic's low casting values is a bit over the top to be taken seriously.

[Lord Dan]

I can't tell if he's serious or not. Some of his suggestions are reasonable, some just have to be jokes. 3+ regen on the hydra for the same price?

[decker_cky]

I think a toned down 140-150 pt Hydra would be good. 5A, no hatred, and a weaker breath weapon. Make it comparable to a heavy chariot with more resilience. Makes a better support piece that you can afford to take in an army, even it it's not an ideal choice.

[Lord Dan]

I think a toned down 140-150 pt Hydra would be good. 5A, no hatred, and a weaker breath weapon. Make it comparable to a heavy chariot with more resilience. Makes a better support piece that you can afford to take in an army, even it it's not an ideal choice.

I wouldn't mind that so long as there was still an upgraded version of the Hydra to choose from.

[ExquisiteMonkey]

Hydra is good, but its not worth more than 200 pts, especially if you remove hatred from the beast itself AND make it work like the normal monsters & handlers, which is almost guaranteed in the new book.
It's only T5, and once you knock a couple of wounds off its' breath weapon becomes much less effective, and there are lots of flaming attacks being thrown about to negate the regen.....

[spartan41]

More than anything new models, the more the better but for sure all outdated specials, and DR and some nice heroes.

I think the elites should be as, if not more, killy than the current HE list(obviously increase points).

I really like what they did wih the character choices in the empire book. Give DE a smiliar treatment. Hags can give the unit buffs(blessings from khaine) if she sacrifices her own units troops, the more she kills the better the buff, or the more kills the unit gets the better the buffs. Can be lord level.

dodge saves for assasins, and similiar to a witch hunter it asigns itself a target at the start of the game. Can be upgraded to lord level but can't be general. Lord level has more magic weapon options and crazy stats(assassins only weapons)

across the board I'd like to see dark elves more offensive, more rerolls and attacks, points to match but just more killy without the magic spells(mindrazor) or item buffs they have access to. I think magic should be toned down.
So basically youd pay alot for a smaller amount of T3 low armor save troops but when they hit they hit reliably hard in combat.

Also maybe slavers rule as an army wide rule.

[Dreadlordpaul]

I could be wrong, but I don't think he was being serious. At least, I can't imagine he was serious with most of that post. Casters gaining one extra spell per level and keeping the ability to throw over six dice at a spell along with Power of Darkness and Dark Magic's low casting values is a bit over the top to be taken seriously.

Have you ever seen how weak dark elves are without all those things

[Jal]

Have you ever seen how weak dark elves are without all those things

Err ---no.

Dark Elves are fine wihtout it - check out the SCGT comp which negates those things...and I still managed 3rd /160

The power in the book comes from many things:

1)Undercosted troops.
2) Bent magic items
3)Internal synergy - for Example 20 Blackguard backed by a Cauldren do not need any other buffs to ruin hobbies. This allows you to foucs your other buffs on ther combats
4) Synergy with the best lore in the game - Shadow
5) Imposing Magic pahses - yes PoD and extra dice are great, but if they're not there then the DE book is still very strong, and still competitive.

[Druchii Monkey]

I can't tell if he's serious or not. Some of his suggestions are reasonable, some just have to be jokes. 3+ regen on the hydra for the same price?

No jokes in that list. 3+ regen on the Hydra works from a fluff point of view and from a game point of view all armies i've played against throw flaming attacks against a hydra anyway. There are so many flaming options in the game 3+ makes no odds overall.

Why exactly do you feel their current cost is balanced?

There is no disputing the current cost of the hydra is a good deal, however every army including the new ones have good deals. The current points cost encourages DE players to take a nice beastie, and to be honest hydras are overrated. Mine generally dies in 2-3 rounds without accomplishing much at all as a result of flaming attacks, a well placed cannonball or some large beastie that charged and got the better of him. Hydras are overrated and if we are talking about increasing points we should talk about them being more effective.

I've not got a problem with them being up to 250 points if they are worth it. Suggestions:
- Hydras regenerate on a 3+.
- Hydras regenerate on a 4+ and in addition D3 wounds each turn on a 6, to a maximum of their starting value.

I think a toned down 140-150 pt Hydra would be good. 5A, no hatred, and a weaker breath weapon. Make it comparable to a heavy chariot with more resilience. Makes a better support piece that you can afford to take in an army, even it it's not an ideal choice.

What would Hercules have to say about that? The Hydra was awesome. It was epic. Heads kept growing back until he used flaming arrows. Needed an immortal to take it on. How about immunity to Heroic Killing Blow. Now we're talking, and yes, i am serious. Come on - don't turn the hydra into some diminutive little munchkin-beast. It's a mega-beast!

I could be wrong, but I don't think he was being serious. At least, I can't imagine he was serious with most of that post. Casters gaining one extra spell per level and keeping the ability to throw over six dice at a spell along with Power of Darkness and Dark Magic's low casting values is a bit over the top to be taken seriously.

Regarding magic, if you read my post i'm suggesting power of darkness and the sacrificial dagger are removed, in exchange for an extra spell per level for dark elves. Also regarding the number of dice this is overrated game-wise but very correct with the fluff and should stay. Dark Elves do go fairly psychopathic with sorcery but this can backfire badly, also in order to get over 6 dice at all in a phase we're talking a 50/50 chance and then you throw 10 dice at it and either it goes irresistible on you or your opponent gets out that dispel scroll they have been saving.

[The bearded one]

The last hydra I faced ate my ancient stegadon in close combat, despite me charging him. They don't need to get more powerful unless the cost goes up about 100 points first.

[The Low King]

No jokes in that list. 3+ regen on the Hydra works from a fluff point of view and from a game point of view all armies i've played against throw flaming attacks against a hydra anyway. There are so many flaming options in the game 3+ makes no odds overall..

So many being......1?

Dwarfs can have more but only on characters (and they usually mean no GWs) or cannons (and Dwarf cannons tend to cost as many points as the hydra)
Lizardmen have a flaming magic weapon...

Everyone else will have one unit with flaming attacks unless they take the lore of Fire or Metal..and you can just dispel them.

There is no disputing the current cost of the hydra is a good deal, however every army including the new ones have good deals. The current points cost encourages DE players to take a nice beastie, and to be honest hydras are overrated. Mine generally dies in 2-3 rounds without accomplishing much at all as a result of flaming attacks, a well placed cannonball or some large beastie that charged and got the better of him. Hydras are overrated and if we are talking about increasing points we should talk about them being more effective.

I've not got a problem with them being up to 250 points if they are worth it. Suggestions:
- Hydras regenerate on a 3+.
- Hydras regenerate on a 4+ and in addition D3 wounds each turn on a 6, to a maximum of their starting value..

My cannons never kill monsters, in fact, in about 10 games against a dark elf list with hydras (where i also had flaming cannons) i have never managed to kill one. Should i therefore conclude that cannons are useless and need a major cost decrease?

A hydra can take on most beasties (except the TK ones with their insane toughness).

Compared to the damage output of other monstres....

The hydra has 7 S5 attacks, a breath weapon, thunderstomp and the handler attacks (6 S3 Ap i believe)...that is far more than any other similarly priced monsters
In terms of survival it has T5, regen, scaley skin 4+.....they are hard to kill

What would Hercules have to say about that? The Hydra was awesome. It was epic. Heads kept growing back until he used flaming arrows. Needed an immortal to take it on. How about immunity to Heroic Killing Blow. Now we're talking, and yes, i am serious. Come on - don't turn the hydra into some diminutive little munchkin-beast. It's a mega-beast!.

Balance =/= fluff. In the fluff Dwarf warriors can take on dragons and space marines can kill thousands of orcs single handedly, how balanced would that be if it was realistic?

Regarding magic, if you read my post i'm suggesting power of darkness and the sacrificial dagger are removed, in exchange for an extra spell per level for dark elves. Also regarding the number of dice this is overrated game-wise but very correct with the fluff and should stay. Dark Elves do go fairly psychopathic with sorcery but this can backfire badly, also in order to get over 6 dice at all in a phase we're talking a 50/50 chance and then you throw 10 dice at it and either it goes irresistible on you or your opponent gets out that dispel scroll they have been saving.

Takes level 2, throws 10 dice at mindrazor, IFs, Miscasts and loses a wound +D6 PD, unit of witch elves you just mindrazored eats the entire enemy army, game won.

[BigbyWolf]

Have you ever seen how weak dark elves are without all those things

Yes, not much weaker. Without it they are still a hard army.

[Druchii Monkey]

So many being......1?

Dwarfs can have more but only on characters (and they usually mean no GWs) or cannons (and Dwarf cannons tend to cost as many points as the hydra)
Lizardmen have a flaming magic weapon...

Everyone else will have one unit with flaming attacks unless they take the lore of Fire or Metal..and you can just dispel them.

Flaming banners across all armies? Flaming magic weapons? Flaming cannons? Warpfire throwers? Firebellies? Bretonnian archers? Lore of Fire? Flaming breath weapons in general - doesn't the hydra itself have flaming attacks, i forget? Have i gone beyond the number one yet? Absolutely.

My cannons never kill monsters, in fact, in about 10 games against a dark elf list with hydras (where i also had flaming cannons) i have never managed to kill one. Should i therefore conclude that cannons are useless and need a major cost decrease?

Just out of interest were you actually shooting at them, and were you playing the regen rules correctly?

A hydra can take on most beasties (except the TK ones with their insane toughness).

It's a decent unit but the beast itself suffers from low initiative which means some of the other big beasties get to go first. This can count against it against other beasties and heavy cavalry. Oh yeh, and the TK point you made.

Compared to the damage output of other monstres....

I think you're confusing number of attacks and damage output.

The hydra has 7 S5 attacks, a breath weapon, thunderstomp and the handler attacks (6 S3 Ap i believe)...that is far more than any other similarly priced monsters
In terms of survival it has T5, regen, scaley skin 4+.....they are hard to kill

With the right strategy they are not hard to kill.

Balance =/= fluff. In the fluff Dwarf warriors can take on dragons and space marines can kill thousands of orcs single handedly, how balanced would that be if it was realistic?

Dwarf lords can take on dragons. Space marines can probably kill a dozen or so Orks but can get unlucky. Haven't you read any of the BL books? Thousands is a complete exaggeration. Get your point sort of but your examples are a little limp.

Takes level 2, throws 10 dice at mindrazor, IFs, Miscasts and loses a wound +D6 PD, unit of witch elves you just mindrazored eats the entire enemy army, game won.

There are a lot of ifs and buts in that one. If you get 10 dice and throw them at Mindrazor, yes you get one good spell off. If one successful casting of mind-razor is all that is required to win the game and forget about anything else then either you or your opponent are playing it wrong.

[The bearded one]

It's still a 5-wound toughness 5, 4+ save, strength 5 , 7 attack hatred monster with breathweapon and 2 handlers pouring out far too many attacks.

[Phazael]

Obvious troll is obvious.....

[vorthrax]

My suggested changes for a new Dark Elf Army Book:
- Remove unit cap for Black Guard
- Allow characters to be upgraded to Khainite
- Add other monsters (in addition to Hydras) as options for Beastmasters
- Make spears on Warriors a purchasable option rather than default
- Add some form of monstrous cavalry (someone mentioned Dark Pegasus Knights/Riders - that sounds amazing!)

[TsukeFox]

Chimera+ beast masters
Sand Serpent Riders-like Dune
Dark magic lore app either works like Death lore app or power of darkness with a chance to wound the caster like ogre magic
Stabby dagger goes bye bye- Pendant stays.

[The Low King]

Flaming banners across all armies? Flaming magic weapons? Flaming cannons? Warpfire throwers? Firebellies? Bretonnian archers? Lore of Fire? Flaming breath weapons in general - doesn't the hydra itself have flaming attacks, i forget? Have i gone beyond the number one yet? Absolutely..

Did you read my post? i mentioned almost all of them

However:

Brett archers will only wound on 6s and you still have a 4+ save
Flaming breath weapons will only work in close combat and its still pretty tough to kill a hydra with.

Just out of interest were you actually shooting at them, and were you playing the regen rules correctly?.

No, i was completely ignoring them in favour of the cheap spear elves.

Of course i was shooting them, that was the point of the two flaming cannons.

And how would i not play the regen rules correctly? its a 4+ save unless i have fire..not that complicated

It's a decent unit but the beast itself suffers from low initiative which means some of the other big beasties get to go first. This can count against it against other beasties and heavy cavalry. Oh yeh, and the TK point you made..

What has the ability to kill a hydra in one turn (excepting maybe things with breath weapons)? the TK ones wont.

I think you're confusing number of attacks and damage output..

7 S5 attacks is a pretty high damage output (hence why i mentioned the strength)

With the right strategy they are not hard to kill..

But they cost more than their points value to kill. Thus need a price hike.

Dwarf lords can take on dragons. Space marines can probably kill a dozen or so Orks but can get unlucky. Haven't you read any of the BL books? Thousands is a complete exaggeration. Get your point sort of but your examples are a little limp..

Ive read a few. They (and the new Space marine game ) refer to space marines as 'gods'. In the Gaunt's Ghosts novels it mentions that entire regiments of Imperial guard will retreat if (chaos) space marines turn up. There are numerous stories of the space marines being far more powerful than they actually are in game.

There are a lot of ifs and buts in that one. If you get 10 dice and throw them at Mindrazor, yes you get one good spell off. If one successful casting of mind-razor is all that is required to win the game and forget about anything else then either you or your opponent are playing it wrong.

Im not saying forget about anything else. But one casting of mindrazor at a key moment can completely change the game, paticularly when combined with hatred.

[theunwantedbeing]

Im not saying forget about anything else. But one casting of mindrazor at a key moment can completely change the game, paticularly when combined with hatred.

The solution is to remove the ability to throw more than 6 dice at a spell.

[decker_cky]

What would Hercules have to say about that? The Hydra was awesome. It was epic. Heads kept growing back until he used flaming arrows. Needed an immortal to take it on. How about immunity to Heroic Killing Blow. Now we're talking, and yes, i am serious. Come on - don't turn the hydra into some diminutive little munchkin-beast. It's a mega-beast!

Warhammer is not greek mythology. Notice how hydras don't gain attacks when they make regeneration rolls? Notice how minotaurs don't have human feet? Notice how even in moderate sized armies, there's multiple hydras as opposed to 1 in the universe?

------

The complaints about flaming attacks are funny, because a hydra without regenerate is still worth about 175 pts.

Also....regarding the people listing a hydra using proper monster and handler rules as a future weakening of the hydra - those are actually an advantage akin to gaining a 5+ ward after regeneration.