haha, you know what I mean, its been a long day at work, I'm tired
haha, you know what I mean, its been a long day at work, I'm tired
In my examples I was assuming DE Spears being charged (hence the quantity of ranks fighting) and "normal" formations, hence the marauders/peasants in hordes and the Spears in blocks, as that is what one would normaly field with these ammount of points. After that I did the horde example only so as not to be accused of being "incredibly unfair". And from what I´ve seen, I have made a mistake with the men-at-arms, for which I apologize. I´ve only used them because I had the costs and stats ready at hand and so as to use 3 very different kinds of opponents. If someone would make similar simulations with rats, orcs, dwarfs and saurus I´d be interested to see the results and let myself be convinced if they show DE core going unsupported over enemy opposition.
The comparison of rough power is not everything, but it certainly is a point if we are saying that a unit is underpriced. And I´m sorry, but Movement was a main characteristic back in the days when charging really mattered. It´s still important, but 1 point of M difference doesn´t make that much of a difference to have a unit so much more expensive. In that context though, as others have posted, vulnerability to enemy shooting and magic is also something that has to be taken into account.
Comparing with the Skeletons, one has to also consider that they are ItP, never break, can be reraised and cause fear. They´ll loose against the Warriors, but hold them (and everything else) tarpited for a long while. I don´t think it´s a good comparison. The one with the Ogres has to take the impact hits into account too.
As to the HE comparison, I really think that ASF and reroll all rounds of combat instead of just 1 round and a full rank more of attacks is pretty much worth more than just one point of difference.
But I find it sad that the whole discussion about suggestions for a new DE book revolves exclusively around points costs. Discussing, for example, what should be done to the CoB and DE magic would be more interesting, IMO.
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And the hydra.
CoB....area of effect buff (Infinite hatred/frenzy?), chariot, bound spell if you take it with a Sourceress (option to?)
DE magic...maybe 6 dice limit but with the lore attribute that you can use one extra dice at the cost of 'if that dice rolls a 1 its a miscast' or something like that.
Hydra, 250 points, exactly the same as it is now.
Here are some ideas I've thought of.
-Spearmen +1 point
-Corsairs come with handbows +1pt for extra hand weapons
-Dark Riders 15pts, +4 for crossbows
-witch elves +1pt
-black guard +1pt no more unit cap
-shades +1pt with unit cap of 10
-cold one chariot -5pts
-RBT 80pts
-Hydra 215pts with S4 breath weapon
-pendant can only be taken on foot
-sacrificial dagger must declare before the casting
-capped at 6 dice to cast like everyone else
-sorcerers are 90pts
-masters are 70pts
Why is it always the innocents who suffer most, when you high lords play your game of thrones?Looks like you lost this game in the "purchase models" phase.
Why do people want to lower the price of the hydra from the SOM price?
I think your misunderstanding me, I was saying the marauders have to many attacks, not the spearman, as I said the spearmen are on smaller bases so you would only get 6 in b2b with the spearmen in a 5 wide formation, as such you the marauders would only be dishing out 25 attacks a turn, this also doesn't take into account the eotg rule which would mean they would have to challenge with the champion who would stand a good chance of dying on the first round of combat thanks to the rerolls to hit, the effect of this is the marauders only rolling 22 attacks on the first round rather than 29, its a massive difference. I also believe the standard setup for spearmen is without shields which would mean you get more spearman than marauders because of the marauders paying for MoK (another 5).
I don't believe anyone is saying they can walk across the board unsupported, this still doesn't mean that DE spearmen should be cheaper than empire swordsmen when they have higher M, I, Ld and hatred, its just a silly, if they lacked decent support I would make some sense but it just isn't the case, so it isn't because of movement that people feel spearmen should do up, its the combination of advantages they have over similar units.
Itp is a two edged sword, the main advantage of being immune to fear and panic doesn't really matter as much this edition with the improvement to BSB's and the auto breaking of fear gone, you lose one very important ability, the ability to flee from charges which can very often turn a game. And sure you can raise skeletons back but this really depends on how good a magic phase you have, its not reliable enough with how the magic system is in 8th ed, its great but frankly is much better with zombies.
I think points are the obvious thing to talk about with a new DE book, just seems to me bar the odd thing most things are fine ruleswise (ignoring magic items), only thing I really want to see changed is the hydra, I personally think its breathe weapon should get stronger the more wounds it regenerates, after all cut off one and two more appearExecutioners need some sort of buff to make them viable, S5 striking in I order with KB would be very nice, atm black guard are just so much better and don't rely on the use of a magical banner.
This all sounds very reasonable and fair, but Masters or Death hags on foot will still be completely useless with a 10 point drop.Originally Posted by vinny t
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I agree. Death Hags probably need like a 5+ Ward base from "blood tattoos" and maybe an upgrade that is -1 to hit for 25 points. They can be a little more survivable then.
The main problem with Masters is that they have no purpose on foot. They aren't killy enough to add much to the unit and the BSB is 99% of the time already a Hag with Cauldron. I say give them a magic item like Skavenbrew that buffs the unit they are with. Something like a "Totem of Blood" that acts as a mini-cauldron. Maybe a 6+ ward and hatred in all rounds of combat for 35pts?
Why is it always the innocents who suffer most, when you high lords play your game of thrones?Looks like you lost this game in the "purchase models" phase.
While I'm not a proclaimed math-hammerer, but this looks a bit off.
I'll have to assume you have points matched the units, as I don't have books nearby (and don't have the Ogre one full stop).
Lets say the dark Elf got the charge to deny the impact hits for the ogres, and that the DE are in 5x6 and Ogres are 2x3, which would be pretty standard in my eyes
DE; 11 attacks (including champion), 7.3 hits, 2.4 additional hits from hatred, which will amount to 3.2 wounds on the Ogres. I don't know their armour, but I think they have light armour and shield(ironfist)? or just shield(ironfist)? still, it is 2.8 unsaved wounds, which doesn't remove any attacks (technically)
But, lets for the sake of arguement, say the DE did remove an Ogre,
that's 16 attacks back (again, assuming champion), 8 hits, 5.3 wounds, which will be 4.5 dead DE's if shields are taken. Then you have stomps, that will likely cause 2 more wounds.
So combat res is (no banner or muso in either);
OG; 6 wounds = 6
DE; 3 wounds, 3 ranks, charge = 7
Slight win for DE, with the Ogres probably haning around? Or, win for Ogres if the 6th model wasn't removed (or if they got the charge).
Round 2 (assuming only 5 ogres remaining) is;
16 attacks for DE, 10.6 hits, 3.5 wounds, again, we'll be generous and remove a whole model.
13 attacks for OG, 6.5 hits, 4.3 wounds, 3.6 unsaved wounds. Stomp does 2 more, which amounts to 1.66 unsaved wounds, so another 5 dead DE.
combat res;
OG; 5 wounds = 5
DE; 2 ranks, 3 wounds = 5
draw.
Round 3 (4 ogres) is;
DE same as round 2
10 attacks for OG, 5 hits, 3.3 wounds, 2.8 unsaved. Stomp wounds twice, 1.66 unsaved, 4 DE dead.
combat res
DE; 2 ranks, 3 wounds = 5
OG; 4 wounds = 4
DE slight win.
If the 6th Ogre isn't taken out in the first round, this changes dramatically, and even if it is taken off, the DE don't win as easily as you indicate.
Are you kidding about the soft stats? They ARE soft Stats. HARD Stats are Strength, Attacks, Wounds, Toughness. Movement is less important in this edition than any other due to random charging. Initiative, overall is worse then ever due to Step Up and Support attacks though it does get the slight boost of attacking first even when charged. You don't take many leadership tests if your units are higher in the HARD stats.
I agree however that DE are too cheap. +1 to +2 points across the board is needed OR +2 to +3 but DE gain;
Preternatural Senses
All elven-kind move with what seems to be effortless grace and blinding quickness to those of other races. Combining swiftness of thought with cat like reflexes and near mystical senses, an elf in battle is capable of easily anticipating the movements of their enemy, making it easier to strike them, or avoid their comparatively clumsy blows.
All Elves ASF. 6+ ward save (Against all attacks)
Note: ASF and Great weapons cancel each other out. 6+ Ward stackable with Parry OR other ward saves.
We shall just have to disagree on this.
At the upper limit certainly.
I know this is warhmmer fantasy, but that is a +4/5 pts bonus.
Last edited by shelfunit.; 07-05-2012 at 05:51.
Member of J.A.D.E.DTrying to convince Warseer that GW are anything less than perfect is like trying to teach a horde of zombies that lettuce is a perfectly acceptable alternative to brains.
Lest we forget
- Remove the pendant or make it sorceress only
- Remove ring of hotek or make it only for bearer + unit
- Max 6 dice for cast, but give them +1 to casting
- Hydra 15-25 points more expensive
- Shades smaller units
- BG unit cap removed
- Remove ASF banner or make it 100 points
- Manticore cheaper
Last edited by Cambion Daystar; 07-05-2012 at 08:04.
Keep in mind that Warhammer is HEROIC 28mm, that is 30mm.
But then again, Kylie Minogue and Shakira are said to be the same scale as NBA players
Are you saying ASF + a measly 6+ ward is worth +4/5 pts on a infantry model, that already has high initiative but low strength and toughness?
I'm trying to decide whether you are crazy or not. DE are undercosted probably by 1.5 (some 1 and some 2) points on many of their models. That ability is worth +1 pt MAYBE 1.5pt at a stretch!
Sheesh!
Remove the ridiculous inverse ward save - Pendant of cheese or increase its points cost.
Make sacrificial dagger have some kind of risk involved ie if you roll a one with the PD your own unit attacks your sorcerer etc.
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Yes, because ASF also gives rerolls to hit every round in combination with your already high initiative. -> at least +2-3 points
Also, a 6+ ward that STACKS with parry is easily worth 1-2 points.
So this together gives a 3-5 point bonus.
Keep in mind that Warhammer is HEROIC 28mm, that is 30mm.
But then again, Kylie Minogue and Shakira are said to be the same scale as NBA players
OK. I think you are. Elves don't put out high strength attacks, and generally not many attacks either. Re-rolling to hit is no big deal. Also how many elf models in Warhammer actually have a parry?!?!?
I can think of none, unless Dark elf warriors can have hand weapon + shield? Either way they lose out on spears or double handed weapons.
Striking first is not a big deal anyway as it was pre-8th ed. Step up and Supporting attacks have put paid to that. I am truly wondering whether you seriously believe a DE spearman should be worth 11 or 12 points when he hits with S3 and has T3, just because he can re-roll hits and has a 6++?
Compare that to say 8 or 9 points vanilla and I know what is more cost efficient!
Yes - it is easily worth this. On high initiative the ASF means not only striking first every turn - even against opponents with the same I value , but also re-rolls to hit every single turn (I have lowered the overall cost as DEs already re-roll hits on the first turn). A 6+ ward save that can be combined with other ward saves is also extremely good. To claim this is worth at most 1.5pts per model is bordering on trolling.
Spears are worth 8pts at their current abilities/equipment - add the ASF and wardsave and 10-11pts is probably about right.
Last edited by shelfunit.; 07-05-2012 at 09:56.
Member of J.A.D.E.DTrying to convince Warseer that GW are anything less than perfect is like trying to teach a horde of zombies that lettuce is a perfectly acceptable alternative to brains.
Lest we forget
Warriors with crossbow - if you give them shield they also have hand weapon so get parry save.
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Not to mentions characters. Enter 3+ wardsave...
Keep in mind that Warhammer is HEROIC 28mm, that is 30mm.
But then again, Kylie Minogue and Shakira are said to be the same scale as NBA players
Tzeentch characters get 3+ ward saves, everyone is okay with those right?
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