My 2 week review of the Empire book after playing several games

[Jind_Singh]

My two cents:

Overall was fairly pleased with the direction of the new book, and it's defiantly in keeping with the other 8th ed books - with a similar power level to all the other 8th ed releases.

To a new Empire player the books fine, there's not much that stands out as instant 'auto-includes' and there are a lot of multiple builds that will work well for the Empire.

The older players however will find a lot that they don't like:

1) Increased points cost across the board makes for tougher list writting
2) Loss of several pages worth of magic items
3) Toning down of Warmachines either by rules or points increase
4) Generals & Captains can NO LONGER take a pistol AND a specialist hand weapon!

But that aside, from an objective standpoint, I don't think there was anything that bad with the book.

Characters

Interesting as at 1st glance it's almost as Warrior Priests are the new auto-includes for the book:

-they can buff a unit AND it's detachments at the same time
- hatred applies to unit AND it's detachment
- points drop
- Can't auto-generate dispel die but can channel power & dispel die to compensate

Indeed at 1st reading you can be forgiven for thinking we can operate with a priest heavy list and do well - but after several games I find that the Warrior Priest is a double edged sword - while his benefits to the army are huge, I soon find myself wanting to put one in each of my units! But while hatred is a good thing (leads to the Dark Side for one!), you soon realize that power dice management is VERY difficult! There are just so many great things that cry out for my attention that it's a tough call sometimes! I think that 1 Warrior Priest or Arch Lector combined with a Wizard is the way forward - even better an Arch Lector on the War Alter as he can then affect multiple units at once using the same amount of dice as say 2-3 Warrior Priests.

War Alter, while not a character as such, deserves a mention...it's excellent BUT PLEASE remember that the 4+ ward save does not apply to the Arch Lector! EKKK

Captains also are another thorn in my side as their strategic use is huge - but you soon run out of points if each of your combat units contain both a Captain AND a Warrior Priest!

The new Witch Hunter is a cool concept but I have yet to use him in the game - so not sure if he is actually viable or a gimmick - my heart tells me he's here today and gone tomorrow, but no doubt I'll include one in my list just because I love the new model!

Grand Master is still the only combat lord we really have but I'm not sold on him yet as:

- It's expensive to kit him out
- He can't ride a Demigryph!
- He is immune to Psych and makes his unit the same - but I LIKE the option of fleeing from time to time, even with a powerful unit of Knights, if it provides me with a tactical edge.

Engineers, these are VERY important thanks to the buffs they provide but consider this...they represent a 65pt INCREASE to a Warmachine as most likely that's all you'd want him to do!

Special Characters are pretty decent - they are well costed for what they do and I don't think any of them really break the game in anyway, in fact very excited to finally purchase and use the Marius figure as I loved it when I 1st saw it but it was just a random collectible figure - so didn't get it! Now it's a useable model with decent rules so I'm down!

Core Troops

No complaints in this section what so ever - sure troopers went up but they were not well priced in the old book anway! Considering a pathetic Goblin Warrior with light armour and a spear , paying a few pts for the same build (but better WS, ini, Ld) is a good deal in my eyes! So it only makes sense that the Halberd is a point more and the Swordsmen a point higher.

The pricing of missile troops was always off before as why would you take an archer when for the same price you got longer range or better hitting power with crossbows or handguns - now there is a reason to use all three and they are still well priced so no issues here for me.

Knights also went down in points from before - in fact this is were there are direct savings if someone wanted to play an all mounted army. My only eyebrow raise was for the reduction in the Knights initiative value to 3. Inner circle is also excellent now as it remains a core unit!

Special Units

This is were the book takes off in my eyes!

- Huntsmen...now special so three units per army AND CHEAPER!
- Reiksgaurd...just pure sex on a stick and Godly! Makes Empire one of the ONLY 8th ed armies that can pull off fully mounted armies AND EVEN CHANCE A WIN!
- Crazymen - yes I miss talking one as a core unit if I have a Warrior Priest, but they are special choices so they won't eat up my rare section any longer. I do like their rules but I feel I must either convert to lore of Life OR take my unit size up from 20.
- Demigrpyhs - these are ok...not so sure they are auto-includes in my list as while they have a decent damage output and lovely armor they are by no means line breakers! And I seriously doubt that they could hold the line either so the jury is out on them - but as for models I do love them!
- Mortar...mixed feelings, it was just TOO DARN GOOD before, now it's kind of a so-so...some armies/times it's been wonderful but at other times sadly under whelming.

Rare

The Steam Tank is wonderful - yes it's down in toughness but the mechanics are solid. Had one vs the Ogres today and even with 5 wounds it kept chugging away like the Little Train who knew he could!

It's very much a support platform now though - it's not a line breaker as it once was, and it still sits there...soaking up damage from units that otherwise would be destroyed by my enemy!

- Volley Gun...is to the Empire as the Heff was to young men all over the world...simply amazing!! Massive damage output, expect to see two per list for the cheesers

- Rocket battery....wow! Love it! Sure it's lower strength but the SHEER AMOUNT of templates it throws out! WOW!!!!

- Wizard wagons - for their price point and extras...solid, both of them! An Orc Boar Chariot weighs in at 85 pts - for just a few more you got deadly Wizard mobiles topped with gadgets!

Summary

So far so good, played the Wood Elves and Ogre Kingdoms this week, a few games last week, with some solid results. The book favors a lot of play styles - I took a more of a fluff list but still did well against some good armies/players and I'm very green still with the Empire, no were near the same level as I'm at with the Goblins.

Thanks all,

Jind Singh

[Duke Ramulots]

Nice review, cant wait to face them with my OnG's.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Just as an aside Knights were always initiative 3. Swordsmen were the ones who dropped from 4 to 3.

[Ville]

I have a couple of games played against the Empire with my VC (two losses, one draw and one win) and I feel they are really well balanced now and fun to play against. I'm particularly happy about the more accurate prices of war machines, more sensible Steam Tank and less automatic dispel dice generation. Before, it felt like my poor counts could prevail against them only by dumb luck.

[Dreadlordpaul]

ive had a game against the new empire book with my warriors and i think its laughable tbh. Some of the things which are garbage are:
Demigryph knights: these die to a simple flickering fire/baleful transmogrification/ gateway.
Core knights are still useless
State troops are now not scary anymore and priests are so easy to kill
Greatswords are meh
Witch hunters are meh
The hell blaster is poop
Overall i feel i could steam roller empire with any of my armies

[Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull]

ive had a game against the new empire book with my warriors and i think its laughable tbh. Some of the things which are garbage are:
Demigryph knights: these die to a simple flickering fire/baleful transmogrification/ gateway.
Core knights are still useless
State troops are now not scary anymore and priests are so easy to kill
Greatswords are meh
Witch hunters are meh
The hell blaster is poop
Overall i feel i could steam roller empire with any of my armies

I think this depends a lot on the general to, lots of people tought in 7ed the same about greenkins. I can't remember the times my opponents smiled when they faced on one of the top tables a greenskin army. After the battle the smile was gone.

I haven't faced the new empire yet but I read the book and I think it looks solid.

Cheers,
G

[Dreadlordpaul]

I think this depends a lot on the general to, lots of people tought in 7ed the same about greenkins. I can't remember the times my opponents smiled when they faced on one of the top tables a greenskin army. After the battle the smile was gone.

I haven't faced the new empire yet but I read the book and I think it looks solid.

Cheers,
G

Maybe it just was the guy using them then again i guess 99% of my army having the MoT didnt help

[Urgat]

ive had a game against the new empire book with my warriors and i think its laughable tbh. Some of the things which are garbage are:

Demigryph knights: these die to a simple flickering fire/baleful transmogrification/ gateway.
Core knights are still useless
State troops are now not scary anymore and priests are so easy to kill
Greatswords are meh
Witch hunters are meh
The hell blaster is poop
Overall i feel i could steam roller empire with any of my armies

How were the dices?

[Confessor_Atol]

I'm 3 games in against empire with my ogres, and I think it's a really interesting book. Two 1500 point games, and tonight our first 2500 pointer.

The dimi-griffs are dangerous, and can really open armor.
My opponent is still working out the magic/prayer synergy, but once he does I'm in trouble.
The inner-circle and reiks guard are fantastic.

They've really give my ogre hoard a run for their money.

[The Low King]

ive had a game against the new empire book with my warriors and i think its laughable tbh. Some of the things which are garbage are:
Demigryph knights: these die to a simple flickering fire/baleful transmogrification/ gateway.
Core knights are still useless
State troops are now not scary anymore and priests are so easy to kill
Greatswords are meh
Witch hunters are meh
The hell blaster is poop
Overall i feel i could steam roller empire with any of my armies

You played one game against them?

everything dies to those spells, state troops were never scary.

[DivineVisitor]

Agree with the vast majority of this and loving the new book
I do however still think that Swordsmen, Handgunners and Crossbowmen are 1 point too expensive, have yet to find a use for pistoleers besides charge baiting and slowing the enemy down and dislike the changes to Flagellants and Mortar (a nerf too far in my eyes).
All that aside though i think the new Empire is amazing, i never really used alot of the things i listed above anyway so my army has changed very little. Main difference is seeing the Mortars swapped out for Pidgeoneers or Hellstorm Rocket Batteries.

[BigbyWolf]

ive had a game against the new empire book with my warriors and i think its laughable tbh.

One game? That hardly gives you enough experience to make a statement like that.

Some of the things which are garbage are:
Demigryph knights: these die to a simple flickering fire/baleful transmogrification/ gateway.

As do a lot of things.

Core knights are still useless

They weren't useless before, they're cheaper now, if anything that makes them better. Why do you think they are useless?

State troops are now not scary anymore and priests are so easy to kill

They were never that scary before, they're about the same now. As Jind says, priest buffs now help detachments so that should make them more of a thread. Also, priests are as killable as they were previously, and people still took them and they did well.

Greatswords are meh

Slightly more expensive, but still good. Why do you think they are "meh"?

Witch hunters are meh

They're a novelty, cheap enough to just drop one in for a bit of fun. Nice models, and something Empire players have been looking forward to for a long time.

The hell blaster is poop

Why is it "poop"?

Overall i feel i could steam roller empire with any of my armies

No offence, but I feel you couldn't. A couple of months ago you stated that you struggle to win with WoC, and all of a sudden you can wipe the floor with any Empire army thrown at you? Highly doubtful.

Making general statements like "X is meh/ poop/ useless" are easy and add very little to a discussion. Jind went into detail with his points, that's the best way to do it.

[Jind_Singh]

EDIT: Pistoliers...

Still can't find that tactical edge for these guys - for just a few points more I'd rather take the high damage output of Outriders. The Pistoliers can't fight in close combat, can't shoot - infact I am struggling to justify them - I'm going to still use a unit of 5 as much as possible for sheer fluff reasons but they have a hard time in the new book which has such stern points limitations as there is a LOT I want to use in my army!


RE: The Warriors of Chaos player - I think you're a bit too quick to judge there old Fruity...A hellblaster throws out THREE ARTILLERY die of strength 5 shots with armor piercing - and once the engineer is helping the gun they get BS4 with NO MODIFIERS for multiple shots...

Hitting on 4s and 3s....

-3 to your warriors saves

Equals dead warriors! Warrior Priests are no harder/easier to kill than before in game terms but are cheaper points so I am struggling to see what your getting at.

Greatswords went up by a point but now throw their stubborn to their detachment AND can benefit from Hold the Line

The Knights were good before but are cheaper in points AND can be stubborn when taken as a special choice...show me the money!

I think that until Warriors get a new book they are very much in trouble vs Empire - but you got it good for now as most Empire players have a ways to go before they can understand their book fully.

[yabbadabba]

I think Pistolliers have become really specific, which is a shame. However the addition of the Champion with RHP does add a little beef. I suppose the balance is between a mobile cheap unit or a less mobile, more durable more expensive unit to do all your tidying up and threatening of single models etc. Personally I think my opponents will more than likely ignore the Pistolliers because of th'internet and they could pull a blinder.

[Gaargod]

ive had a game against the new empire book with my warriors and i think its laughable tbh. Some of the things which are garbage are:
Demigryph knights: these die to a simple flickering fire/baleful transmogrification/ gateway.

Really, we're really calling gateway 'simple'? Flickering fire should bounce a fair amount (1+ armour is pretty good, even at T3). Baleful is excellent versus high cost models, although still shouldn't be causing much damage, if we're honest. Demigryphs will also perform can-opening motions versus a lot of WoC (Tzeentch blocks, for example, dislike them as most attacks bounce).

Core knights are still useless

They're cheap 1+ armour cavalry. Pretty much do what you pay for.

State troops are now not scary anymore and priests are so easy to kill

State troops were never really 'scary'. Halberdier hordes with Razor Standard + Priest were about the only things that could count as scary. It's just more expensive now. Swordsmen going down to I3 and getting more expensive makes them significantly worse per model, yes. On the plus side, detachments being core is excellent news.
Priests have always been fairly easy to kill - AoMI could keep them safe before for cheap, but no longer. Thankfully, hatred only works first round, so you at least get their bonus even if they're ninjaed.

Greatswords are meh

They do what they've always done - 4+ stubborn S5 troops. They're unfortunately overcosted, but the basics are still there. The detachments now coming out of special is a pain.

Witch hunters are meh

Actually, I think they're pretty good. Or more accurately, one with brace of pistols and VHS is good. Might not do much against a 3++ chaos wizard, but try it against a vampire lord, who absolutely*hate* killing blow now. You will be taking VHS, so it's not a bad place to put it.

The hell blaster is poop
Overall i feel i could steam roller empire with any of my armies

WoC are probably an army that will do well against the new Empire - only Demigrpyh knights will be doing much damage against them due to good saves (or marauders/khorne warriors butchering stuff in return). But WoC are a top tier old book. I suspect someone like OnG or TK will find it different.

[Damocles8]

EDIT: Pistoliers...

Still can't find that tactical edge for these guys - for just a few points more I'd rather take the high damage output of Outriders. The Pistoliers can't fight in close combat, can't shoot - infact I am struggling to justify them - I'm going to still use a unit of 5 as much as possible for sheer fluff reasons but they have a hard time in the new book which has such stern points limitations as there is a LOT I want to use in my army!

I've used pistoliers to help lock down flanks (effectively!) by blocking and shooting at other fast cavalry and chariots (killed a beastman chariot with a SnS reaction!) and used them to decent effect in harassing medium blocks of troops, or blitzing through the line and charging artillery

[willowdark]

I've seen comments on the possibility of an all cav, or at least cav-based, list, and comments about the strengths of Demigryph cav. I haven't seen the book. Would it be possible to do a Demigryph cav-based army? I was thinking MSU style with 3 units backed up by core knights and some Steadfast infantry with reasonable warmachine support.

Like I said, I haven't read the book yet, but people talk about all the new options available and I can't help but think an army like this would at least look impressive on the table.

[Jind_Singh]

No - they are a special choice so at most 3 units per army - and no characters can take them as mounts unless you see the FW book to have their Nuln champion on his 'Gryph

Mounted Empire works for me because:

1) Core Knights for a good price
2) Stubborn Reiksgaurd is just fantastic - great at holding down blocks
3) FOUR different chariots!! Steam Tank, War Alter, 2 Magician wagons!
4) Outriders to pump out a bucketful of shot
5) Pistoliers - actually useful as they are the only expendable unit you have

[Razakel]

How do you Empire guys feel the Empire vs Dwarf matchup is sitting with the new book out? I realise we haven't had much time to digest it, but my group has an Empire player, and I have yet to play him under the new army book. Is there anything I should be gravely concerned about? Love the thread btw

[Deff Mekz]

No offence, but I feel you couldn't. A couple of months ago you stated that you struggle to win with WoC, and all of a sudden you can wipe the floor with any Empire army thrown at you? Highly doubtful.

Making general statements like "X is meh/ poop/ useless" are easy and add very little to a discussion. Jind went into detail with his points, that's the best way to do it.

Congrats, you've found the phenomenom known as the internet troll.

Jests aside, I really which members of this forum would stop comparing 8th edition books to 7th edition book. It's really starting to do my head in to put it bluntly. If you compare all the 8th ed books they all fit in nicely together power level wise, with Empire sitting nicely in the middle of the pack IMO. The new Empire book is perfectly fine, and even the mortar is decent against some armies. In fact I going to throw a curve ball out there, and say it's the best stone thrower in the game right now. (from 8th ed books off course) The large template means it's pretty hard to miss with, and the low strength is compensated for by the amount of models you'll hit.