Empire IC Knights - GW or Lance and Shield?

[Gradek]

I am building some empire IC knights and was wondering what the general consensus is for knights, do we go with GW (for S6 save 2+) or lances/shields (for S6 charge, but 4 after and 1+ save)? Now that the IC is core, I think this decision is much more important than before. Anyone have a preference.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Lance + Shield.

[DivineVisitor]

Lance + Shield.

Seconded. 1+ save means even against S4 opponents (which are running about everywhere) you still only fail the armour save on a 1.

[FLUEVOG]

Disagree - unless you're absolutely sure that you can get a supporting unit dug in, your IC Knights are still not going to break anyone on the charge (with Steadfast). Dropping to Str 4 after the charge makes them all that more weaker. Consistant Str 6 round after round is what I'd recommend.

[DivineVisitor]

Disagree - unless you're absolutely sure that you can get a supporting unit dug in, your IC Knights are still not going to break anyone on the charge (with Steadfast). Dropping to Str 4 after the charge makes them all that more weaker. Consistant Str 6 round after round is what I'd recommend.

I aim to flank my opponents with Knights or go into units already weakened by artillery. You shouldn't expect them to break busses head on.
Shadow Magic also helps, Mindrazor and Withering allow the Knights still do a number on the enemy in subsequent rounds of combat.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

It's true that a unit of Empire Knights is unlikely to break infantry in one round. The problem is that the units are usually small in number, 9, 10, sometimes 12. With GW, you will always have to endure hits before you get to strike. That means that the chance to suffer losses will reduce your impact and with less numbers, you're even less likely to break someone. With a 2+ save, you're also more likely to suffer casualties regardless of who goes first.

Now you could point at I3 and argue that most things strike before them anyways but that is only partially true Dwarfs, Lizzies, Skellies...and of course everyone with GW). Then there is always the chance to get a Miasma or SoL through, and both Lores are liked well by many Empire players.

Lastly, not every unit is 30+ casualties strong. That means going first can easily lead to less attacks coming back, step-up and stuff notwithstanding. Units suffer during a battle in my experience, some players go MSU, others don't have enough models, and some just don't like to spend the points on a horde of Elites. Or you might be able to clip into an ongoing combat...the list of possibilties is not endless but sizeable.

[Scalebug]

Another vote for the Lance and shield, and for the reason of the saving throw primarily. Even if a continuous S6 is nice, S4 or S3 with armour piercing is so common it is worth it not failing 1/3 but 1/6 of the armour saves. Add to that the various buffs of your own strenght (or to wound-roll) or debuffs to the targets toughness available to you, the marginal advantages of the great weapon shrinks rapidly.

[Souppilgrim]

I find that the casualties caused with your GW outweigh the extra kills the enemy gets on your knights, but it really depends.

[Mr Ogre]

Calvary do a real number on Monstrous Infantry (good save negates much of their perks, and Cavalry can't be stomped).

As an Ogre player, I'd have to say stick with Great Weapons. WS4, S6 seriously hurts my lads!

[SilasOfTheLambs]

GW for units of 10+ including characters, and you have to be more careful about how you use them. Otherwise lance.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

I would say great weapons on the strength 3 regular knights with lances for anything strength 4.

[Trains_Get_Robbed]

Lances and Shield no question, not even worth arguing. However if it were normal knights, then we would have a debate on our hands, not many things in the game can achieve a +1.

Another question if proposing to the O.P and you folks:

So we take Lance+Shield on our I.C knights, we even throw a W.P in there for the shiggles its a relatively large unit (11-16), what banner do you put on them? A.P or Reroll charge banner from A.B? Personally I think it would depend on how many other Cav. units you have, though I think the A.P banner works better in the end.

[bigbear bailey]

Great weapon all day. Weither you hit a flank (like 4 str 4 attacks back at most) or dead on in the front (charging sauris) your going to need as many high str attacks the second round as the first, and lances don't do that turn after turn.

Now if you own lance knights will it be OMG worse, not at all, but I do think the edge goes to GWs!

[DivineVisitor]

Lances and Shield no question, not even worth arguing. However if it were normal knights, then we would have a debate on our hands, not many things in the game can achieve a +1.

Another question if proposing to the O.P and you folks:

So we take Lance+Shield on our I.C knights, we even throw a W.P in there for the shiggles its a relatively large unit (11-16), what banner do you put on them? A.P or Reroll charge banner from A.B? Personally I think it would depend on how many other Cav. units you have, though I think the A.P banner works better in the end.

The Ranger standard is my preference for large units.

[Dark Aly]

I like some units with with GW's to provide the kills for my steadfast spearmen blocks but L+S to go monster hunting.

[Jericho]

Yeah IC w/ lances and flaming banner can be a very cheap monster-seeking missile. And if they die, who cares! It's like 150 pts and fills up Core!

Personally I like the lance and shield option for Knights as well as the Gryphons. With 1A each I don't see the point throwing away the armor save bonus.

[Minsc]

Lance+Shield, even on big units. You want them to grind/lock your opponent, not break them (which they still won't do with GW's) - that requires 1+ save, especially with the abundance of S4 out there.
Besides, it's usually my characters who does most of the killing anyway. (GW BSB, Runefang GM, Sword of Might WP).

I can see Greatweapons as an option on regular S3 Knights, but on IC Knights? S4 is usually good enough. It's not like going from 8-9 S4 attacks to 8-9 S6 attacks is gamebreaking anyway. But that one last save you managed due to having shield, that prevented your knightunit from breaking from combat? That -can- be gamechanging.

[CmdrLaw]

I can see Greatweapons as an option on regular S3 Knights, but on IC Knights? S4 is usually good enough..

I personally think every point of STR is worth it, means wounding T4 opponents on 2's instead of 4's and completely removes most armour. Plus means you have a decent chance of mashing T6 monsters (no thunderstomp).

Seeing as most Cavalry can't even manage a 1+ save, to get 2+ it with WS 4 and S6 every round is great.

STR 3/4 just isn't good enough.

Though I do think Lances are just the right thing to put on a knight, maybe I should try Brittonians.

I think it's just personal preference really, depends on support and other things such as Lore your taking. But it might be safe to say IC Kinghts = Lances. Normal Knights = GW.

[theshoveller]

Lances and Shield no question, not even worth arguing. However if it were normal knights, then we would have a debate on our hands, not many things in the game can achieve a +1.

Another question if proposing to the O.P and you folks:

So we take Lance+Shield on our I.C knights, we even throw a W.P in there for the shiggles its a relatively large unit (11-16), what banner do you put on them? A.P or Reroll charge banner from A.B? Personally I think it would depend on how many other Cav. units you have, though I think the A.P banner works better in the end.

I usually go with either the Steel Standard (though I haven't used the new one yet) or the Banner of Swiftness.

[pkain762]

the problem with the GW is that if you hit a unit with that, you're going to fail armor saves..... empire knights are only good because they have the 1+ save..... without that save, they're no good.... you are just going to lose knights quickly..... even a str 4 unit is going to drop a GW knights save to a 3+...... Cavalry is not going to beat infantry in this edition (unless it is a unit of blood knights or chaos knights because they are very angry) GW are very tempting, but use the knights to charge weakened units/warmachines/or support charges..... let us not forget that you are striking last