People who call your list cheesy?

[Dreadlordpaul]

Hey guys so today i had my first proper game with my GK and it was against BA. i had no vehicles in my list and he had a raven and dread along with 5 naked prriests and the rest of his army he basically called my list cheesy. Btw my list was
Grandmaster halberd psybolts 3x skulls

5x paladins with 2x psycannons 3x halberds and 1 hammer

10x strikes with 2 psycannons 8x halberds

10x strikes with 2 psycannons 8x halberds

5x termies with 2x halberds 1x psycannon 1x hammer

10x interceptors with 2x psycannons 8x halberds

5x purgatation with 4x psycannons.

So what should i say to the guy as he says my list is to good at everything and that it has no weaknesses. Is my list really that cheesey

[Glenn87]

méh, people have the intention to call every good army OP. Especially GK's, even tough your list isn't OP at all.

[Dreadlordpaul]

it made me laugh because he had 11 DC in his raven joined by astroph and his only dread then he complained when my psycannons killed it

[S_A_T_S]

Am I wrong, or are there some problems with that list? 11 DC + Astorath won't fit in a Stormraven - astorath has JP so counts as 2 models, Stormraven has capacity of 12, also why the hell would he take 5 naked priests? That is far too many (unless we are talking 3k+ points). He doesn't sound like he knows what he is doing, so was probably beaten so badly naturally he'd think your list is way OP.

I don't know much about GK, but from what I do know and have heard, your list is cheesy/beardy simply because it is GK They are a bit ott in my view, should never have been available as a stand alone force, only as allies to imperial armies, and with more limited unit choices. Halberd are also op - +1I permanently is enough (better than furious charge and normal marines, fight same time as eldar), +2I is too much.

[Kevlar]

As far as GK go your list looks very tame. None of the usual psydread or purifier spam.

[Dreadlordpaul]

Am I wrong, or are there some problems with that list? 11 DC + Astorath won't fit in a Stormraven - astorath has JP so counts as 2 models, Stormraven has capacity of 12, also why the hell would he take 5 naked priests? That is far too many (unless we are talking 3k+ points). He doesn't sound like he knows what he is doing, so was probably beaten so badly naturally he'd think your list is way OP.

I don't know much about GK, but from what I do know and have heard, your list is cheesy/beardy simply because it is GK They are a bit ott in my view, should never have been available as a stand alone force, only as allies to imperial armies, and with more limited unit choices. Halberd are also op - +1I permanently is enough (better than furious charge and normal marines, fight same time as eldar), +2I is too much.

ive never read the BA book he told me that the BA storm raven has different rules to the GK one which didnt bother me too much as i killed it first turn. Also he was tryna spam feel no pain

[ReveredChaplainDrake]

ive never read the BA book he told me that the BA storm raven has different rules to the GK one which didnt bother me too much as i killed it first turn. Also he was tryna spam feel no pain

When comparing Stormbricks between chapters, the only major differences are the missiles and how the BA's Skies of Blood explicitly meshes w/ Descent of Angels. Bloodstrikes are pretty big, but nothing to write home about compared to what Mindstrikes can do to certain armies (Tyranids and other Grey Knights).

GK versus BA only favors GK unless the BA player knows what they're doing. GKs are canned victory just add water, but properly-run BAs can pick and choose fights they can win and systematically pick the GK army clean. Not easy, certainly not pretty, and probably involving list tailoring, but possible.

That said, if the OP's opponent played anything non-Imperial, particularly a xeno army, my sympathy for the OP would evaporate rather quickly. I let it slide here because I know BAs. To take BAs and lose as badly to GKs as you claim suggests "bad player" more than "unfortunate choice of army that couldn't really hope to do much better". Though not entirely relevant to the OP's specific scenario, I think he's touching on something far bigger here than just one isolated incident. To put it bluntly, the deal with playing the troll army is that your victories are attributed to playing the troll army. It takes a thick skin to play the troll army, but some players have that gift of not caring what other people think. Others (like myself) don't. Neither are wrong, but it's simply a matter of picking what kind of gamer you are and playing against those of like minds. If it bugs you that your GKs get called cheesy, you can either deal with it, or reconsider your choice of army. For a personal example, I play Blood Angels because I want to be seen as the guy who uses an okay army very well. BAs have the tools to beat everyone, but the frailty and high points cost that could see them beaten by anyone competent. Sometimes I lose, but it's almost always because I could've done something better. Contrast this against my Dark Eldar, where the outcome of my games could be determined far quicker by playing Rock-Paper-Scissors. I don't play Dark Eldar very often anymore.

[Dreadlordpaul]

When comparing Stormbricks between chapters, the only major differences are the missiles and how the BA's Skies of Blood explicitly meshes w/ Descent of Angels. Bloodstrikes are pretty big, but nothing to write home about compared to what Mindstrikes can do to certain armies (Tyranids and other Grey Knights).

GK versus BA only favors GK unless the BA player knows what they're doing. GKs are canned victory just add water, but properly-run BAs can pick and choose fights they can win and systematically pick the GK army clean. Not easy, certainly not pretty, and probably involving list tailoring, but possible.

That said, if the OP's opponent played anything non-Imperial, particularly a xeno army, my sympathy for the OP would evaporate rather quickly. I let it slide here because I know BAs. To take BAs and lose as badly to GKs as you claim suggests "bad player" more than "unfortunate choice of army that couldn't really hope to do much better". Though not entirely relevant to the OP's specific scenario, I think he's touching on something far bigger here than just one isolated incident. To put it bluntly, the deal with playing the troll army is that your victories are attributed to playing the troll army. It takes a thick skin to play the troll army, but some players have that gift of not caring what other people think. Others (like myself) don't. Neither are wrong, but it's simply a matter of picking what kind of gamer you are and playing against those of like minds. If it bugs you that your GKs get called cheesy, you can either deal with it, or reconsider your choice of army. For a personal example, I play Blood Angels because I want to be seen as the guy who uses an okay army very well. BAs have the tools to beat everyone, but the frailty and high points cost that could see them beaten by anyone competent. Sometimes I lose, but it's almost always because I could've done something better. Contrast this against my Dark Eldar, where the outcome of my games could be determined far quicker by playing Rock-Paper-Scissors. I don't play Dark Eldar very often anymore.

I have 4 40k armies chaos marines eldar DE and GK so i know how strong GK can be when optimized which is why mine aint. This guy also has a space wolf army which i have beat with both my chaos marines and DE. He basically called DE and chaos marines broken after they beat him. I picked my GK list from units i like and theme which is why i have no tanks/ purifiers/ named characters and henchmen. I know the weaknesses of this list and i know how i would beat it with all my armies. I can understand my list being called cheesy if i took the broken stuff but its the fact that he calls every army i beat him with broken.

[AdaptUK0]

The problem I find, coming back into the hobby, is that ultimately you're not going to find any "standard" space marine armies out there...just BA and SW (in general, of course there will be exceptions) because of the special rules. Here is an example...

2 years ago I entered a doubles tournament 1k, played against a team of BA players who fielded 5 min squads in razorbacks with assault cannons and 2 land speeder typhoons. They won, because they fielded a "cheesy" list - there wasn't any flavour to it, just spam out cheap over-effective units.

Last year the same team entered the same tournament with a 1k GK list. It was the same models they had the year before, just sprayed silver, and the razorbacks had been changed to psycannons. Again spam out cheap over-effective units.

Lets face it, any list that uses the same unit more than twice, has done so because it's too good to be true - usually over effective and cheap. Look at DE and the venom spam! Unless you have a mix of different units in your army, chosen because you want a variety of models and units that don't all do the same thing - then your army will be stinking like gone off gorgonzola

[hazmiter]

I'm staying away from special characters in Gk, point for effectiveness they are great.... But purifier troops.... Paladin troops.... No thanks. I like things where they are in the list, makes it fun.
Already get terminators as troops, so why go paladins as troops when you can go all terminators, plus max elites on paladins anyway......
I don't know why he would spam fnp vs Gk though..... It's all pw through and through in cc, where blood angels are meant to be good.
If I was in his shoes I would have loaded out on assault squads, 1 dc squad in rhino, and terminator captain w s shield, lightning claw and assault termies in a mix.....

[TheDoctor]

Lets face it, any list that uses the same unit more than twice, has done so because it's too good to be true - usually over effective and cheap

I disagree good sir! Try playing deathwing.

@DreadLordPaul

A grey knight list without psybolt dreadnoughts, Rhino/Razorback spam, or lots and lots of Death Cult Assasins?

Is it possible? A grey knight list that would actually be fun to play against?!?!

Also, I am under the impression that you could only ever take a max of 3 Sanguinary priests in a list?

[MagicHat]

3 priests per elite slot TheDoctor, altough 5 is usually unnessecary.

I don't know why he would spam fnp vs Gk though..... It's all pw through and through in cc, where blood angels are meant to be good.

GK shooting is pretty good, so FNP is wise and the S bonus is good. + you strike ahead of the psycannon guys.

[hazmiter]

@ the doctor.
1-3 sanguinary priests per elite choice, 1 sanguinary noviate per command squad, makes 11 bubbles of fnp fc spam.
Good point magic hat. Str and init bonus helps with killing them, unless they have halbeards, but also vs shooting, as well, I failed to see it.
Not a lot of marine killing stuff in shooting unless its ap 3, and fnp nulls it to a 4+ save vs incinerators.
I'll bear that in mind.

[AdaptUK0]

I disagree good sir! Try playing deathwing.

I did say in general, but the thing is deathwing "currently" are playing with an outdated codex are they not? I'm sure if they were updated it would be alot worse. Games Workshop have to make each next codex more enticing that then previous editions!

Although your army doesn't monopolise the standard GK spam, you still have too many psycannons for my liking. Psycannons themselves are your cheese element.

52 x ST 8 AP 4 RENDING shots a turn =

36 hits per turn (based on BS4, 8 of which are rending)
ST 8 means, wounding on 2's = 30 wounds
6-7 of which are rending.

The psycannon is a standard issue, over-powered cheap assault cannon that is spammed, make no mistake at that. You should only see a GK army against a daemon host army, otherwise 1 unit in a normal marine army would be flufy - I don't see why they'd waste their time on standard xenos that normal marines could mop up.

Just my view, take it with a pinch of salt people! Everyone is entitled to there own opinion on how to game

[hazmiter]

Psy cannons......
I have 2.......
Going for the classic clense and burn w inferno templates..... Str 6 ap3.
For silencer types I have my dreadknight, I care not for a blast template, but I love 12 shots, plus an 18" range flamer.
Guess there are many types of cheese..... My dk is a swiss type, pops holes in daemon princes and chaos marines get flamed to bits.

[TheDoctor]

I did say in general, but the thing is deathwing "currently" are playing with an outdated codex are they not? I'm sure if they were updated it would be alot worse. Games Workshop have to make each next codex more enticing that then previous editions!

Although your army doesn't monopolise the standard GK spam, you still have too many psycannons for my liking. Psycannons themselves are your cheese element.

52 x ST 8 AP 4 RENDING shots a turn =

36 hits per turn (based on BS4, 8 of which are rending)
ST 8 means, wounding on 2's = 30 wounds
6-7 of which are rending.

The psycannon is a standard issue, over-powered cheap assault cannon that is spammed, make no mistake at that. You should only see a GK army against a daemon host army, otherwise 1 unit in a normal marine army would be flufy - I don't see why they'd waste their time on standard xenos that normal marines could mop up.

Just my view, take it with a pinch of salt people! Everyone is entitled to there own opinion on how to game

Deathwing isn't outdated! *cough* *cough*
-But seriously, the FAQ did help out a lot.
-Generally, most of my squads are identical, because there aren't a lot of options.

Also,
-Psycannons are S7
--Still wound on 2's, but it doesn't ID T4, and also affects armor pen rolls
-I am unsure of what you mean by saying "based on BS4, 8 rend"

[AdaptUK0]

Deathwing isn't outdated! *cough* *cough*
-But seriously, the FAQ did help out a lot.
-Generally, most of my squads are identical, because there aren't a lot of options.

Also,
-Psycannons are S7
--Still wound on 2's, but it doesn't ID T4, and also affects armor pen rolls
-I am unsure of what you mean by saying "based on BS4, 8 rend"

Sorry, Like I said, I'm getting back into the hobby - some rules might be slightly foggy. Doesn't Rending occur when you roll 6 to hit? so 52 shots/6 = 8.67 i.e. 8 dice should be 6?

I just think that a standard issue weapon in squads assault 4, st 7 (giving 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound) and isn't it cheaper than an assuault cannon?

Regardless, I don't think GK, SW or BA are balanced in fairness to the standard marine codex. I preferred the edition where you can take the equivilent of doctorines for your force, or give players the option of making a standard marine force unique. Rules decisions like "instead of jump packs, they get a -35pt towards cost of a transport" because it's a rule that just got hammered. Why only blood angels? Have they got more resources to contruct cheaper transports or something?

It's easy to sell a new army when "look at these new models, all new special rules, way better than standard marines" comes out every year.

[Dreadlordpaul]

I use my psycannons for anti tank

[AdaptUK0]

I use my psycannons for anti tank

Sorry, that's a really lame excuse. This pair of scissors is for cutting paper. Doesn't mean I can't stab someone's eye out with em! If you use them for anti-tank, someone would question why you need so much AT in your army....52 anti-tank rounds? brotha' please

[Lord Khabal]

nope. rending is on the to wound / AP roll. If it was on the "to hit", then yes, psycannons would be broken
the psycannon is also Assault 2 and not assault 4. It is heavy 4 though.

I think that BA (or GK) are better than "vanilla" marines in some aspects, but are definitly not strictly better. In fact GK are very very differnt from other marines.