How would one beat this Dark Eldar force in future? (With Space Marines)

[Snakeb1te]

1500pt battle, Space Marine v Dark Eldar. I am the Space Marine player, my friend the Dark Eldar.
House rule in this match up was that the DE player had to design his army list and show it to me, and I was allowed to then design mine.
However I would have to deploy first, and he would be allowed to choose whether to go first or not.
(Its a little long and needless to explain why we adopted this rule but just go with it)

So, how would you counter this list as a Space Marine?

HQ - Duke Soliscus
ELITES - 9 Trueborn with shardcarbines + Raider*
TROOPS - 10 Wyches with hekatrix and 2 Hydra Gauntlet upgrades + Raider* x3
FAST ATT - 3 Reaver Jetbikes
H. SUPPORT - Void Raven Bomber with flickerfields and 4 necrotoxin missiles x2

*All Raiders equipped with flickerfield and nightshield upgrades
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I went for:

HQ - Pedro Kantor
ELITES - Vanguard Vets with Assault Packs
TROOPS - Sniper Scouts with Missile Launcher x4
TROOPS - Full Tactical Squad with flamer and Lascannon
FAST ATT - 2 Squadrons of 2 Land Speeder Typhoons
H. SUPPORT - 3 Predators with Heavy Bolters and Hunter-killer missiles




RESULT: Pretty much got tabled. He got his re-reroll for combat drugs and got a 6 (Feel-no pain for wyches).
Infiltrated scouts got assaulted in turn 1, Predators had terrible rolls.
Scout squads and tactical squad with Kantor wiped out by turn 2. The idea was that hunter-killers would negate nightshields but he got pretty lucky with flickerfields. Typhoons would be there to kill raiders and then try to kill wyches with lots of blasts, but scatter and feel no pain helped them survive far too much.
Scouts were supposed to be there for grabbing objectives and sniping out raiders hopefully, but they barely got the chance.
Kantor would be there for Stubborn (though in hindsight combat tactics would have been more useful) and the orbital bombardment which he didn't get to use. Everything in the list was pretty much geared for as much mechanised dakka as possible (as he had far more anti-infantry) to shoot out as much as possible before they got in close combat. Unfortunately my shooting all game was poor, flickerfields and feel no pain saved most things if not the cover saves from terrain, and by turn 2 little infantry was left to shoot with. Vanguard Veterans also came far too late, landed out of assault range and then got counter assaulted.

I saved pictures of the game but its not necessary to view them as I just want to know what I SHOULD have taken to this battle. Definitely snipers thats for damn sure..
Anyway ask if you want to see them.

Thanks

[Vestigialante]

That's a lot of sniper-scouts to hedge your bets on. Why so many?

[Snakeb1te]

Well I thought seeing as how they're cheap, can kill vehicles if lucky, can pin units, and massive range I thought they're better than bolter scouts. Also, my other troops choice, tacticals, are so costly, will probably only be able to get only 1 round of rapid fire before being assaulted (if that!) and would get smashed by all those toxin missiles.

What about bikers? Or dreadnoughts? I know predators was the right thing to do, and probably land speeders too, because they only didn't do well due to poor rolls and the fact he got lucky with feel no pain combat drugs, but the rest was fail, especially vanguard veterans.

[1 ++]

Level the Wych Raiders first, if they catch you down you'll be locked up all game in cover and they will whittle you down. Pity your not taking any Rhino's, as the Trueborn are all poisoned and do nothing to Mech. They are a great unit, but too expensive for this pts level IMO and wrong for MEQ - they go savage against Deamon's, MC's and High T models.....


Keep your models either spread out or on multiple levels in cover - those missiles will sting a bit if your clumped up - they are only One Shot, but he's fielding 8 of 'em....

A Dreadnought would be good here as he doesn't have much AV fire power. If you can field a St6 of higher flamer weapon then he'll smash both troops and transports....... Stay away from bikers though, as the Trueborn will eat them up before they get to shoot.

[Axeman1n]

I feel that a couple of Rifleman dreads would have done very well against this list, cracking open their transports, and ignoring FNP.

[DeviantApostle]

I have to ask here, what in blue blazes happened to your dakka predators? Those should rip right though Raiders and replace the Rifleman Dreads in a pinch.

However, your mistake here was the scouts. The chance of a sniper taking out a vehicle is small, for one. For two, you took six infantry squads against a list that does horrible, horrible, things to infantry. Sniper scouts are great but you really had your cheese in the wind.

What would I do? Rhinos. RHINOS! Our enemies cower in metal bawkses FOR A REASON. Or Razorbacks, better.

Also, your house rule about starting the game is bad. I can't imagine playing in a group where one side gets to tailor their lists all the time, that's just insane. Tactical play in 40K is hard enough without more factors eliminating it.

[Snakeb1te]

I'm afraid to say that bad to-hit rolls and armour pen vs his really lucky 5+ invulnerable saves on vehicles meant that by the time dakka preds started killing, it was too late, the wyches had disembarked and begun smashing.

As for anti infantry, I was hoping that their lack of ap4 weapons would pose little threat, but I was obviously stupidly wrong because 8 blasts in one round of shooting is certainly going to kill going to get through 3+ armour saves (which it did). I had the right idea I think, with the landspeeder typhoons and preds, but then i offset that by stupid going sniper and infiltrating them rather than keeping them far far back.

As for rhinos.. are they really that good if wyches can run faster than them due to fleet? Plus then my tacticals can barely do anything when inside.

That house rule was only there by the way, becase I am totally unfamiliar with Dark Eldar codex, as is he with my ork codex. So to avoid having to read the whole of the dark eldar codex and learning everything in case it shows up, I get to see his DE and need only learn what he's fielding, making it much easier to take in. Same with him and the orks.

[HereBeDragons]

As a dark eldar player (albeit not a very good one...) I can assure you that Rhinos are an absolute pain in the !@#$. Multiple units of tactical squads (with flamers) in rhinos I find very hard to beat. Yes the wyches move faster, but are only hitting on 6s if you move 12". Furthermore, even if they destroy your rhino (fairly unlikely) you can rapid fire them to death with your squads. It takes roughly 6 dark lance shots a turn to kill (wreck or explode) a single rhino in general, and while we waste time firing at them, your predators/riflemen dreads should be eating our vehicles.

[DeviantApostle]

I'm afraid to say that bad to-hit rolls and armour pen vs his really lucky 5+ invulnerable saves on vehicles meant that by the time dakka preds started killing, it was too late, the wyches had disembarked and begun smashing.

Ok, bad dice rolls happen. The Rifleman Dread is slightly more efficient against us because of the Lance rule and the Pred's AV13 but really, I know I hate seeing Dakka Preds. Bad luck but this was a good choice.

As for anti infantry, I was hoping that their lack of ap4 weapons would pose little threat, but I was obviously stupidly wrong because 8 blasts in one round of shooting is certainly going to kill going to get through 3+ armour saves (which it did). I had the right idea I think, with the landspeeder typhoons and preds, but then i offset that by stupid going sniper and infiltrating them rather than keeping them far far back.

Stalin was a douche but he got one thing right: Quantity has a quality of its own. It's not just the blast templates, that Trueborn unit with the Duke is one nasty, nasty, bunch of hombres both at range and close up. Then you have three Wych units that also kill infantry stone dead in CC AND the Reavers. Anti-infantry on top of anti-infantry on top of anti-infantry, spamming attacks like no tomorrow at good range. On top of that, he went first... more on that later.

As for rhinos.. are they really that good if wyches can run faster than them due to fleet? Plus then my tacticals can barely do anything when inside.

YES! It's not about speed, it's about protection. DO NOT TRY TO OUTRUN DARK ELDAR. It doesn't work. We are the fastest army in the game and we pay for it by flying around in cardboard boxes. Enough bolter rounds will take out a Raider or at least cripple it, then you charge the candy that falls out. Or you take Razorbacks with twin LCs or Las/Plas, move around the board and blow us out of the sky. A Razorback can get anywhere on the board in a few turns while still laying down fire and Raiders don't look anywhere near as impressive when they're wrecks.

Wyches die when you shoot them. Heck, your opponent's not even running a Haemie which means he's not starting with FNP on any of those units without a 6 on the Drugs roll. I don't know if he's running Haywire Grenades or not but if he isn't, the wyches are useless vs. anything with an AV. So is that Trueborn unit. De-meching DE cuts our speed way, way, down. If you stay bunkered up, and choose your targets wisely, you can slow us down, take out key units and win with slightly less alacrity but with much more safety. The point of the Rhino is to protect your infantry from his anti-infantry firepower and give them a little more mobility so YOU get the first shot, not the DE.

That house rule was only there by the way, becase I am totally unfamiliar with Dark Eldar codex, as is he with my ork codex. So to avoid having to read the whole of the dark eldar codex and learning everything in case it shows up, I get to see his DE and need only learn what he's fielding, making it much easier to take in. Same with him and the orks.

Ok, here's the problem doing this facing DE. Dark Eldar are are first strike army. Not only is this guy running a anti-infantry army against plenty of infantry, your house rule gave him auto first turn in which to use it the most effectively.

See, here's the DE battleplan in a nutshell: Hit you FIRST, hit you HARD, leave nothing around to hit back. Because if we get hit first, important stuff dies. We are the squishiest army in 40K, most of our vehicles can be shot down by bolters, of all things (you need alot of them but they work). Our troops get mowed down by bolters, much less anything with more punch. Just handing a DE player the first turn is like dropping the soap in a prison shower on purpose. Then you built a list that his is a hard counter for and expected good things. If you keep up not rolling for turn 1, you're going to be facing an uphill battle every game vs. this guy.

[Snakeb1te]

Thankyou kind fellows for your responses I have learnt much! Here is what I have to say in reply to your replies..

1. I realise now how useful rhinos are even against Dark Eldar, definitely will be keeping them nearby. He will be using haywires from now on though, this much he told me himself. And something else called a haywire caster. Nasty stuff. Regardless for 35 points its not much to ask to add in a rhino/razor.

2. Interestingly my next list is again focused around firepower, but this time with some assault units of my own to counter assault. Wyches getting into combat within the first two turns is an inevitability, so I need some counter assault units to charge in when they engage. The idea in my last game was that when wyches charged the snipers, my vanguard would drop in and counter, but they were far too expensive, and snipers were a bad choice.

3. You know after my experiences with autocannons I'm not sure if I want rifleman dreads now, but I'm tempted to kit them out with heavy flamers. If nothing else, it would make one think twice about coming too close when there's a dreadnought within 12 inches.

4. That house rule was only meant to be used for our first game, so I didn't have to memorise the entire Dark Eldar codex. After that defeat I recognised immediately that giving him first turn only made it easier for him. Now that I know a little better how Dark Eldar work, as well as all these helpful tips from you Dark Eldar players here on warseer, I should be comfortable making a balanced army against a Dark Eldar force.

[Sami]

Dakka (heavy bolters, autocannons, etc) and missile launchers (krak for vehicles, frag for infantry) would rip it apart, god-like flickerfield saves not withstanding. You list was 50% good, but the elites, HQ and some troops were wasted.

[Wolfsbane]

I fight DE regularly. I'm a space wolf player so my tactics are a little different (double tap and counter-attack), but you have combat tactics. This allows you to purposely fallback to get out of a combat. Wyches have higher initiative, but if you have something else with greater resilience assault to let them get away.

Two things DE have a problem with, especially in close combat:

1. Dreadnoughts. They need 6's to hit if they have haywire grenades, if they don't they are more than likely going to either run or just get bogged down in melee. I have a triple dread list (HQ special character and two normals) that my buddy's wych heavy list just cannot beat.

2. Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield Termies, they just can't kill them. Even the Hexatrix with an agonizer has to deal with the 3++ save. Depending on their combat drugs they need 4's to hit, 5's to wound, and then you have 2+ saves. A nice big squad of 5-8 can stop one - two squads of wyches.

Another thing is flamers. I a heavy flamer from a dreadnought or that hidden flamer in a small tactical squad can really hurt 6+ wyches.

I would highly recommend putting all of your squads in razorbacks or rhinos. It looks like the only real anti-tank he has are the dark lances on the raiders. Dark lances suck at taking out tanks.

[Snakeb1te]

I'll note your advice, thanks for your input.

I do wonder though if combat tactics would be so great due to their initiative 6 I am likely to give them a free pain token should they perform a successful sweeping advance.

As for terminators, I'll think about it for sure, but again with that many attacks, surely even a 2+ save offers little protection? Then again for only 30 points more than a tactical squad, it might not be such a bad idea..

[Carlosophy]

Remember that marines aren't destroyed in a sweeping advance as per the ATSKNF rule.

Your biggest mistake for me was probably spreading out and infiltrating your scouts. Divide and Conquer is as valid in 40k as it is in real life and being able to take down the scouts piecemeal before getting into the rest of your army was a classic example. Against DE you need to castle up. Refused flank is one option. Getting rid of Kantor in favour of a Librarian might help too. Null Zone can work wonders against Wyches and their 4++ save in assault.

[DeviantApostle]

Yeah, I'll double that reccomendation of ATSKNF and CT. Shooting the Wyches is infinitely better than being in CC with them if at all possible.

With the TH/SS Termies, the goal generally of throwing Wyches at them is to bog them down rather than kill them. Because the Termies will win that fight eventually, if I'm lucky I'll take a few down before the Wyches go splat. Same thing with Wyches vs. Dreads, really, that's seriously not a good match up no matter how you cut it but if the Wyches prevent a dread from contesting late game they earn their keep.

Now, if I want to kill TH/SS Termies, I'm looking for some major attack spam. Beastmasters, dakka Scourges, dakka Trueborn with Sliscus for example. If I don't have that, I need to tarpit that unit, which means Wyches.

Dreads get shot with dark matter, ideally. Or avoided if at all possible. They are one good reason to bring Scourges with Haywire Blasters, honestly.

[Wolfsbane]

Yeah, I'll double that reccomendation of ATSKNF and CT. Shooting the Wyches is infinitely better than being in CC with them if at all possible.

With the TH/SS Termies, the goal generally of throwing Wyches at them is to bog them down rather than kill them. Because the Termies will win that fight eventually, if I'm lucky I'll take a few down before the Wyches go splat. Same thing with Wyches vs. Dreads, really, that's seriously not a good match up no matter how you cut it but if the Wyches prevent a dread from contesting late game they earn their keep.

Now, if I want to kill TH/SS Termies, I'm looking for some major attack spam. Beastmasters, dakka Scourges, dakka Trueborn with Sliscus for example. If I don't have that, I need to tarpit that unit, which means Wyches.

Dreads get shot with dark matter, ideally. Or avoided if at all possible. They are one good reason to bring Scourges with Haywire Blasters, honestly.

Sound advice, terminators are wonderfully resilient units, but if you force a large amount of saves; they will die. Like any game, pick your targets.