The first end-user-friendly affordable 3d printer?

[Rick_1138]

Faces on GW's plastics have been really disappointing to me in the past seven years or so and I have yet to see a company do any better with their computer-sculpted faces on plastic miniatures.

Oh i dont know, the SW plastics bare heads are quite good and take painting well. The worst faces GW did were the P.fist clad veteran sgt they released in the all metal box a few years ago, he looked like he was taking a particulaly stubborn poo in his armour! and the plastic scout heads were awful, but thanfully they seem to have backed away from the cube headed grimace look! hehe

[gunmnky]

3D printers are interesting, I think they are a long way of from printing models (but long in terms of tech is arguable) however you can be printing scenery and objective markers right now. 3D printers are being used more and more in the computer modding areas as well with people custom printing bits they want instead of getting them cast in metal and the results look ace

Really?

So this isn't acceptable for a model? http://www.moddler.com/index.php?p=model&id=15

Or any of these, for that matter? http://www.moddler.com/portfolio

I swear people are looking at legos when talking about 3d printing

[TheMav80]

Really?

So this isn't acceptable for a model? http://www.moddler.com/index.php?p=model&id=15

Or any of these, for that matter? http://www.moddler.com/portfolio

I swear people are looking at legos when talking about 3d printing

That first one is about 8 inches high though. I'm not saying it doesn't look great, but there is a big difference between making something that is 8 inches high and making the same thing at 2 inches.

[Sean_OBrien]

12" high actually.

And along those lines, a regular figure is somewhere around 1 1/4" tall (give or take a few millimeters here and there). If you use somewhat squat proportions of 5 heads tall that gives you a head which is 6 mm tall and 4 mm wide. If you figure normal proportions for the eyes and stuff on that head the eyes are 0.8 mm wide and significantly shorter (even if you model them wide open and bugging out).

If you compare those figures with the resolutions used (taking the Moddeler example) you would have 19 "blobs" across the eye and something like 20 or so layers. While you can make something work with it - it requires a lot of clean up before you move to casting or painting. The resolution limits become exceptionally pronounced on certain types of surfaces (things like flowing capes have been problematic with most printers).

Now you can get them printed at higher resolutions which are actually useable with minimal clean up, however most of those services make Moddeler look like Legos (and have the price point to match it).

I like the printing a lot, however it works better for me as something which is creating a frame to use traditional sculpting to provide the finished surface.

[Trasvi]

Really?
So this isn't acceptable for a model? http://www.moddler.com/index.php?p=model&id=15
Or any of these, for that matter? http://www.moddler.com/portfolio
I swear people are looking at legos when talking about 3d printing

As discussed before, the resolution of Moddler is 16 microns, or 15 times better than the printer in the original topic, and costs ~$25 for a single humanoid figure or $80 for something dreadnaught-sized.

[prowla]

I agree that the 3D printers are interesting. Maybe they're not good for much at miniature front at the moment, but the thing is - resolution is only going to get better and the prices cheaper. My estimation is that small miniature businesses will grow to love them soon - it doesn't matter if a single miniature quality print costs $100, if you're going to make casts out of it.

I'd also be interested to see how micro-scale 5 axis CNC machining is doing, pricewise. The CNC has a lot better resolution in general - this is the way GW etc. are getting their plastic molds, 3-ups etc., right?

[Sean_OBrien]

Most CNC machines still function in a largely analog method (that is if the design calls for a circle, it cuts a circle as opposed to a series of small cuts which represent a circle), so their resolution is limited by the tools you are using on them. We have a large CNC mill (used for engine work and milling other automotive parts). The only real limit to it in terms of detail is the size of the bit used.

Actual tooling for plastic molds will be cut generally using both regular CNC machines and also using an EDM process (should be able to find a video over on Youtube if you want). With that a copy of the model or part of the model is cut out of something like graphite and used to...I guess you could say melt the mold cavity. EDM is very slow, but very precise. With CNC - it can be very quick (depending on tool quality and metal being cut) but as you get smaller and smaller in scale it becomes slower due to speed limits and you will almost always have some scalloping which will need to be polished by hand or using other more labor intensive methods.

[frozenwastes]

Give this industry time. I bet resolutions will get better and costs will go down. We're still in the spend a lot or be a disappointed early adopter stage.

[Cxt]

Considering how quickly computers progressed from 8 bit color games to World of Warcraft (or Dawn of War 2), that took what, 20 years? Take a look at 3d printers 20 years from now, and you'll have one in every home (Computers went from monstrosities taking an entire room to fitting in your pocket in what, 50 or so years?) The technology isn't there yet for the common consumer, but I see no reason to think it won't be given time.

[xxRavenxx]

Considering how quickly computers progressed from 8 bit color games to World of Warcraft (or Dawn of War 2), that took what, 20 years? Take a look at 3d printers 20 years from now, and you'll have one in every home (Computers went from monstrosities taking an entire room to fitting in your pocket in what, 50 or so years?) The technology isn't there yet for the common consumer, but I see no reason to think it won't be given time.

You say this, but can you name... five? applications for it in a home that doesn't include gaming.

I suspect that while the technology will improve, and probably become home-available to some extent, it wont ever be for the common consumer.

[Sean_OBrien]

I suspect that while the technology will improve, and probably become home-available to some extent, it wont ever be for the common consumer.

I agree with your conclusion as well (much like large format printers/plotters which have been around for decades, vinyl cutters and the rest of that type of equipment). However, might as well just get the Star Trek replicator scenario out of the way since that seems to be where most of them seem to think this is going.

Eventually, but I doubt that will be happening anytime within the lives of anyone who is reading this right now. The 3D printers will be something that is neat for a few users, and something that your average consumer might find actually useful once every few years (like a large format printer or vinyl cutter). Technology that would actually make them useful for most consumers doesn't exist yet and would involve doing things like printing electronics or complex objects that would need dozens of different materials (printing a shoe that would actually be comfortable to wear).

Until we see something like that on the horizon, I wouldn't expect to see them become common place...at least not any more common than a large format printer (which isn't hard to find - but I can count on one hand the number of individuals I know who have one in their house).

[shelfunit.]

You say this, but can you name... five? applications for it in a home that doesn't include gaming.

I suspect that while the technology will improve, and probably become home-available to some extent, it wont ever be for the common consumer.

1) Making costume jewelry
2) Childrens toys (admitedly miniatures fall into this bracket too)
3) Making brackets and other similar fixings (for hanging things on walls etc)
4) Making general objets d'art
5) Cutlery.

Seriously the list goes on and on - you can make essentially anything that is non-electrical and can be made from plastic to a certain maximum individual part size - I worry more for people who can't think of more than 5 things to other than make miniatures for wargaming - it's like asking someone to name 5 things a computer can do other than making a word document...

[TheDungen]

I think this'll be more in the line of photoshop and a printer than a large format printer. its a thing for people who like to be creative and i think it'll become fairly common, but it wont become smart phone common.


I dont supose it could be used to make any CAD object i have to render it in their own program?

[Erazmus_M_Wattle]

I don't think it would have such a wide appeal if you could only use their program. I expect it would accept any 3D file.

[xxRavenxx]

1) Making costume jewelry
2) Childrens toys (admitedly miniatures fall into this bracket too)
3) Making brackets and other similar fixings (for hanging things on walls etc)
4) Making general objets d'art
5) Cutlery.

Seriously the list goes on and on - you can make essentially anything that is non-electrical and can be made from plastic to a certain maximum individual part size - I worry more for people who can't think of more than 5 things to other than make miniatures for wargaming - it's like asking someone to name 5 things a computer can do other than making a word document...

You essentially put "art" three times there.

As for cutlery, I suspect the trend for metal will continue on, and toys would be dangerous. The price of a printer, and the lifespan of products made on it if being used in a tactile manner, does not outstrip good old fashioned metal.

[shelfunit.]

You essentially put "art" three times there.

As for cutlery, I suspect the trend for metal will continue on, and toys would be dangerous. The price of a printer, and the lifespan of products made on it if being used in a tactile manner, does not outstrip good old fashioned metal.

Twice, three times if you include the toys. Metal is fine, but the prices of it are going through the roof, hence why the majority of 28mm scale miniatures are turning to resin and plastic nowadays. You go on about the price, the current price, yes, but initially home computers were several thousand pounds, now they are in the low hundreds - I can see the 3-D printers soon(ish) leveling out at £100-200, but only when they are mass produced. As for the life span of the products made by the printer - completely irrelevent - just print out a new one when the old one breaks. If you want a more extensive list how about keys, plates, cups, bottles (and bottle tops), plastic tubes (quick plumbing fixes), covers and plastic housing for Iphones and other devices (like remote controls), glasses frames, cable housing, etc, etc - are you really trying to tell me you can't think of anything like this that is useful from a household point of view? Just type in "3D printer uses" into google and there are a ton of them.

[Trasvi]

Twice, three times if you include the toys. Metal is fine, but the prices of it are going through the roof, hence why the majority of 28mm scale miniatures are turning to resin and plastic nowadays. You go on about the price, the current price, yes, but initially home computers were several thousand pounds, now they are in the low hundreds - I can see the 3-D printers soon(ish) leveling out at £100-200, but only when they are mass produced. As for the life span of the products made by the printer - completely irrelevent - just print out a new one when the old one breaks. If you want a more extensive list how about keys, plates, cups, bottles (and bottle tops), plastic tubes (quick plumbing fixes), covers and plastic housing for Iphones and other devices (like remote controls), glasses frames, cable housing, etc, etc - are you really trying to tell me you can't think of anything like this that is useful from a household point of view? Just type in "3D printer uses" into google and there are a ton of them.

How many times have you been sitting around at home wishing you had a new bottle top? And when you now have that bottle top, how long until you need another one? For each of those applications you've said, you're needing a different type of material in the cartridge (not to mention you'll want different colours as well). I'm all for the idea that we don't know how we'll use the technology. I can see people starting to print all kinds of amazing things. But I think the cost of the equipment and the cartridges will be prohibitive considering the rare amount of times it may get used. What I can see happening is print shops being set up in every medium+ sized mall where you can get it printed easily in high quality. We have internet stores (shapeways et al) doing this now, and it seems to work.
Consider it like printing glossy 6x4 photos at home. It is possible, but you need a decent quality printer and the paper is expensive - much easier to just print them at the mall for a quarter of the price of buying the paper. Pretty much anything you could print at home on a 3D printer will be easier and cheaper to buy mass-produced.
Honestly, I'm seeing a trend of houses and families without even normal printers these days. The majority use for my family at least was school assignments, and even schools are moving towards electronic assignment submission these days.

I would love to be proven wrong, but I see the 'print shop' thing as much, much more likely.

[shelfunit.]

How many times have you been sitting around at home wishing you had a new bottle top? And when you now have that bottle top, how long until you need another one? For each of those applications you've said, you're needing a different type of material in the cartridge (not to mention you'll want different colours as well). I'm all for the idea that we don't know how we'll use the technology. I can see people starting to print all kinds of amazing things. But I think the cost of the equipment and the cartridges will be prohibitive considering the rare amount of times it may get used. What I can see happening is print shops being set up in every medium+ sized mall where you can get it printed easily in high quality. We have internet stores (shapeways et al) doing this now, and it seems to work.
Consider it like printing glossy 6x4 photos at home. It is possible, but you need a decent quality printer and the paper is expensive - much easier to just print them at the mall for a quarter of the price of buying the paper. Pretty much anything you could print at home on a 3D printer will be easier and cheaper to buy mass-produced.
Honestly, I'm seeing a trend of houses and families without even normal printers these days. The majority use for my family at least was school assignments, and even schools are moving towards electronic assignment submission these days.

I would love to be proven wrong, but I see the 'print shop' thing as much, much more likely.

Bottle tops break and/or get lost all the time, but don't let your focus on a single example from an long and incomplete list get in the way of a "this will never happen" argument.
You seem to be looking at this very short sightedly. Currently the price of the hardware is expensive - I agree, and specifically included it in my post. The price of the material is however currently very cheap, and as these devices become more prolific, like the devices themselves will drop due to competition. Indeed you will need different types of plastic for different applications, just like you need different colours on a colour printer - amazingly they solved that minor issue, switching out plastic cartridges is unlikely to be any greater of a hassle. As for print shops, look at digital cameras and the effect that has had on photo printing shops - once the capacity for doing the same thing at home, for a much lower price became widely availible they collapsed - see Kodak and their problems of an example of this in action. You seem to be confused as to the relative costs of getting photos developed - it's certainly cheaper if you only do a couple of dozen photos a year or so, but for a larger quantity it most certainly becomes cheaper to print out at home. You may see a reduction of printers, but that is because the majority of things that need printing have now been transfered to electronic form and carried around on memory sticks - were the 3D CAD models being used solely on computer then yes, home printing would not expand, as all of the things a 3D printer can do are specifically for physical interaction this will not be a problem.

[Trasvi]

Bottle tops break and/or get lost all the time, but don't let your focus on a single example from an long and incomplete list get in the way of a "this will never happen" argument.
You seem to be looking at this very short sightedly. Currently the price of the hardware is expensive - I agree, and specifically included it in my post. The price of the material is however currently very cheap, and as these devices become more prolific, like the devices themselves will drop due to competition. Indeed you will need different types of plastic for different applications, just like you need different colours on a colour printer - amazingly they solved that minor issue, switching out plastic cartridges is unlikely to be any greater of a hassle. As for print shops, look at digital cameras and the effect that has had on photo printing shops - once the capacity for doing the same thing at home, for a much lower price became widely availible they collapsed - see Kodak and their problems of an example of this in action. You seem to be confused as to the relative costs of getting photos developed - it's certainly cheaper if you only do a couple of dozen photos a year or so, but for a larger quantity it most certainly becomes cheaper to print out at home. You may see a reduction of printers, but that is because the majority of things that need printing have now been transfered to electronic form and carried around on memory sticks - were the 3D CAD models being used solely on computer then yes, home printing would not expand, as all of the things a 3D printer can do are specifically for physical interaction this will not be a problem.

In terms of cartridges, I agree that it would /should be / is easy to change over. Is was more meaning the cost of keeping multiple different types of cartridges on hand. Currently ink is the most expensive part of a home printer, and I can only see that increasing as one needs to have a cartridge each of many types of plastics, rubbers, ceramics and metals on hand to print out anything. A dedicated print shop seems like it would be better able to stock multiple materials than a home printer would. Perhaps dedicated photo printing shops might not exist any more, but (around here at least) they do feature in most office supplies, electronics and department stores.
As for the cost of photos currently I can print photos at 10c per photo plus ink. Or, I can get it done at a office store / print shop for 10c per sheet, no ink or hardware costs... I don't think any significant amount of people buy packs of over 100 sheets of paper at a time? A quick search for suppliers didn't find me anywhere local that sold sheets for significantly less than 10c per sheet.
The other argument I see against 3D printers is the inability for a large number of people to create decent content themselves. This may be a skill learnt over time, and the market in downloadable meshes would probably explode if this did come to fruition, but I think it is unavoidable that realising a decent 3D model for printing is significantly more difficult than a 2D print.

Are there really things that you would use this for every week outside of Wargaming? I must admit, I don't find myself missing bottle tops ever, and the only times I'm short enough on cutlery to need some printed it would probably be cheaper just to wash the stuff I already have I've used shapeways for wargaming, and I can definitely see the use of 3D printers in spare parts for various things, but on a weekly or even monthly basis, not so much.

[shelfunit.]

In terms of cartridges, I agree that it would /should be / is easy to change over. Is was more meaning the cost of keeping multiple different types of cartridges on hand. Currently ink is the most expensive part of a home printer, and I can only see that increasing as one needs to have a cartridge each of many types of plastics, rubbers, ceramics and metals on hand to print out anything. A dedicated print shop seems like it would be better able to stock multiple materials than a home printer would. Perhaps dedicated photo printing shops might not exist any more, but (around here at least) they do feature in most office supplies, electronics and department stores.
As for the cost of photos currently I can print photos at 10c per photo plus ink. Or, I can get it done at a office store / print shop for 10c per sheet, no ink or hardware costs... I don't think any significant amount of people buy packs of over 100 sheets of paper at a time? A quick search for suppliers didn't find me anywhere local that sold sheets for significantly less than 10c per sheet.
The other argument I see against 3D printers is the inability for a large number of people to create decent content themselves. This may be a skill learnt over time, and the market in downloadable meshes would probably explode if this did come to fruition, but I think it is unavoidable that realising a decent 3D model for printing is significantly more difficult than a 2D print.

Are there really things that you would use this for every week outside of Wargaming? I must admit, I don't find myself missing bottle tops ever, and the only times I'm short enough on cutlery to need some printed it would probably be cheaper just to wash the stuff I already have I've used shapeways for wargaming, and I can definitely see the use of 3D printers in spare parts for various things, but on a weekly or even monthly basis, not so much.

It all really depends on what form the "cartridges" take - if they are like printer cartridges on a 2D printer then they will potentially become expensive as many of those are single use, but if the 3D ones were reusable - the plastic being granules and not liquid going into the printer makes multi-use (and therefore far cheaper) cartridges more probable. Also as they are solid granules you could concievably have a single removable cartridge that you just emptied out, washed and the filled from whatever bulk container you required.
For home printing costs in the US seem higher than those in the UK - we can get photo 6" by 4" paper for about 5p a sheet - about 20-30% cheaper than it seems you can. As I said, if you only print out a few photos a year it will work out cheaper, but for a large amount home printing can be significantly cheaper and easier.
For the content I agree - it all depends on how freely availible the digital designs are, but even today filesharing sites provide a large number of designs which can be downloaded in seconds.
The things you will be (and mostly already are) limited to are essentially anything that isn't electrical and size. Incredibly complex designs have already been printed out involving moving parts and, as long as the individual parts are of a size that can be printed - limited by the conveyer belt length - you can build pretty much anything.