Fighting Mindshackle Scarabs

[Chapters Unwritten]

I found that generally, if there is a squad of 5 lords with Mindshackles, they are going to carve up anything that attacks them because of the insane number of times you will have to test, and the fact that 5 of your models aren't going to be attacking (which is usually enough of a squad to make it unlikely that they'd succeed in CC). I was just wondering what people's strategies are for dealing with these guys?

[Kurisu313]

Really? A Squad of 5 Lords by themselves? That seems preposterously easy to deal with considering how much they cost, as they have only 1 wound each.

I mean, thats 265pts minimum, right? Plus at least one Res Orb. Just shoot them to death. Sure, they're T5, but they're 5 1W models, with only a 3+*. Even killing 1-3 will make a big impact on their CC ability.

If for some reason that fails, the goal is to avoid letting them attack your elites. Realistically you want them fighting trash (where they can't make their points back) or tarpits, which can overwhelm them with numbers.

*If they have a 2+ or a 3++, then laugh more as that's a huge waste of points.

[Memnos]

Which army are you talking about?

It would be easier to give you specific tactics based on that. If your army is Orks, we'll suggest something very different than if you field a single Wolfhound titan.

[Bunnahabhain]

I second Kurisu313. Shoot them dead. Shoot them very dead*. The only time you might want to engage them in CC is if you have a big low quality unit- 30 Ork mobs or 31 man guard tarpit blobs spring to mind, as they're the units mindshackles won't do much to.

* as Guard player, I am biased, as this is the answer to everything....

[Alsiaie]

MSS can have diminishing returns as you add more to one unit. When taking a unit of them it nearly impossible to avoid having more than 1 model in base contact with the MSS or even multiple MSS. Multiple base contact decreases the chance of hitting specialist models. It also increases the chance that multiple MSS may stack on a single enemy model. The MSS test can be taken multiple times but it is still only D3 hits whether you fail one test or 5. This means that 10 models fighting 5 MSS lords have a chance of only having 3 of 10 models affected by MSS. It may even be less depending on how the randomization favors you. Unless they charge from a ghost ark you failed to kill,5 MSS lords should pose little threat. A royal court can't start in a ghost ark either during deployment unless the models are attached to the unit the ark was purchased for. This will eliminate the ability to charge on turn 1 since the lords can't embark and disembark in the same turn. There is a slim chance that all 5 will even make it into HtH before getting shot first. Even with a res orb and ever living I can't see them withstanding an incredible amount of fire power. Push comes to shove you may have to throw a cheap unit at it to bait it out of cover and/or into rapid fire range to dispose of it.

[rocdocta]

i run necrons and the easiest way to remove them is shooting. however any necron worth his orbs will:

1. put them in an ark turn 1 for a 2nd turn assault.
2. have a screen of wraiths in front of the lords when on foot for the cover save. said wraiths will then support lords in combat and reduce init to 1.

however a great way to take them out of the battle is with large chaff units ie IG conscripts with a commie. who cares if 1 attacker loses his attacks and attacks his own unit. 4+ to wound and a 5+ save or 4+ save.however you may lose 1 per lord if unlucky ie 2 hits *5 =10 = 5 wounds = 2 or 3 dead connies at the most. as long as the power weapons are not in base contact they will clean up if you can roll the 6 to wound.

but really buckets and buckets of high str shots/supporting attacks will whittle them down.

[Chapters Unwritten]

The above is exactly what he did, but he also had a Cryptek and an Overlord with them which made things tougher. He engaged my T-wolves which was smart because there are so few models it basically made it so that I couldn't hit back. The big throwaway type of unit is a good counter, it seems.

[rocdocta]

also be aware that using wraiths to assist, a canny MSS OLord can snipe out key models. ie if there is a power weapon the Olord only engage the power weapon and the wraiths engage all others and hey presto the random model in base contact is the PW guy. powerfists can also be sniped out and prove deadly. MSS lords dont need to worry too much but it can still be done.

[Kevlar]

also be aware that using wraiths to assist, a canny MSS OLord can snipe out key models. ie if there is a power weapon the Olord only engage the power weapon and the wraiths engage all others and hey presto the random model in base contact is the PW guy. powerfists can also be sniped out and prove deadly. MSS lords dont need to worry too much but it can still be done.

Thats why a canny marine player will always completely surround his fist guy with all the other guys. Why would you ever put him in the front of the unit?

[Nurgling Chieftain]

I have to say, the ability of Necrons to get their MSS's into the correct position seems rather overstated by most 'net descriptions of its effects.

[ColShaw]

As a Guard player, I gotta go with Bunnahabhain. Shoot them right in the face. If they don't fall down, you clearly didn't shoot them enough, so do it some more, until they do. Barring that, throw a 30-man blob squad into them and swarm them under. You won't run away, the extra casualties will be irrelevant, and you'll eventually smack down the robots.

[rocdocta]

Thats why a canny marine player will always completely surround his fist guy with all the other guys. Why would you ever put him in the front of the unit?

they dont, but during the game casualties from shooting etc may mean that there may be an opening. a Olord on a barge and 5 wraiths are pretty good for getting where they need to be. an easy tactic is Olord flies over, kills two, the barge shoots with the gauss cannon kills 1 and this will often open up a gap. its why my Olord+barge and wraiths are my MVP.

[DJ3]

I have to say, the ability of Necrons to get their MSS's into the correct position seems rather overstated by most 'net descriptions of its effects.

More like 99% of players aren't used to the positioning of their models being so important in terms of Assault, or just don't have the necessary understanding of the Assault Movement rules to take such things into account in the first place.

It's real easy to say "Mindshackle Scarabs shouldn't work at optimal levels because it's hypothetically easy to avoid," but it's a whole 'nother thing to actually have people learn how to handle that situation properly in practice. Everyone's pretty accustomed to the previous five years of lazy-ass "eh, I'll just put the most important guys in front"-style arrangement of their models by this point, and it's making for rather easy pickings in terms of MSS for the foreseeable future.

But anyhow, these mythical 5-MSS units are mostly the kind of thing we joke about sarcastically in the Necron Tactica, rather than something that should ever be fielded seriously. If you're getting killed by it, it's solely because you can't turn off the "PUNCH IT IN THE FACE WITH MY DEATHSTAR!@!#!@" part of your brain, because absolutely any other reaction to it is the proper counter.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

More like 99% of players aren't used to the positioning of their models being so important in terms of Assault, or just don't have the necessary understanding of the Assault Movement rules to take such things into account in the first place.

I guess I've played enough "keep that fist away from my IC" that it seems perfectly natural to stuff a pud on a 'Lord and leave it there.

[rocdocta]

you raise a good point DJ3. I have never seen a 5 lord MSS unit. i think for the points and killyness that destocryps are better or even a barge lord. especially when you add in the price of an ark to get them there.

[wyvirn]

This unit would excel against IC carrier units and wound allocation abusers, but would get torn apart by anything else really. You'll get shot apart, overwhelmed, or just won't do enough damage to really win combat.

[Chapters Unwritten]

While I appreciate you telling me pretty directly that I'm just an incompetent player, there are a few things you should bear in mind while doing so:

Firstly, I and the player I played against both quite literally learned the game together, and we have both been playing for several years now. So player skill level is roughly equivalent.

Secondly, in the situation I referred to in the original post, I got charged after trying to shoot the unit down a bit. I vindicated a few of them but, surprise surprise, they got back up. So, I didn't blindly throw my T-wolves into the squad. I tried to avoid them, and failed. Units like Thunderwolves are easy to get into position for MSS ownage; any unit with a small enough number of models is. This is not barring the fact that you are supposed to pile in after combat and charge react before. By the second turn of combat I see 10 man units almost completely engaged in b2b all the time because of these bits.

Thirdly, if this unit excels at manhandling deathstars and wound allocation-centric units, doesn't that make it have a clear and highly sought after use, rather than being a joke unit?

Again, I appreciate your input and all, but a unit that can potentially make 5 of your models not only not hit in CC, but hit themselves, seems like it is a pretty ugly problem to me. Now of course in my case I was pretty unfortunate; the T-wolves are ld8, and I didn't whittle the unit at all, plus he had them accompanied by a standard Overlord and Cryptek which added some capabilities.

You are right though. Lots of people don't fully understand the assault movement rules. Particularly the bit where models have to do charge reaction moves and pile in moves to b2b, and where ICs are first in those cases typically. So yeah. I think maybe cracking wise about the "suspicious" nature of how easy it is to get these guys into a good position in the combat is something you might want to think twice about.

[Wolfsbane]

I am not sure, but dreadnoughts do not need to roll against MMS because they do not have a leadership score.

[Konovalev]

Thirdly, if this unit excels at manhandling deathstars and wound allocation-centric units, doesn't that make it have a clear and highly sought after use, rather than being a joke unit?

No? deathstars are already a poor decison, and so taking a deathstar that is only good at mulching other death stars is an even worse decison.

[TheGreatDalmuti]

The problem with this unit is that while very good at taking apart deathstar units, it will die easily to so much else allready there. A deathsatar list already has the counter to this unit, and the ability to stay away from it. While taking this unit forses you to go after the deathstar as quickly as you can, you are spending so many points on something that the opponent knows what it's sole perpose is. Look at it like a vindicator, another way of crippling deathstars. Do you see much use of them? No because tactically they will be forsed in a situation where not only will they be unable to touch their intended target, but will be ill equiped for any other job too.