Fighting Mindshackle Scarabs

[Chapters Unwritten]

I found that generally, if there is a squad of 5 lords with Mindshackles, they are going to carve up anything that attacks them because of the insane number of times you will have to test, and the fact that 5 of your models aren't going to be attacking (which is usually enough of a squad to make it unlikely that they'd succeed in CC). I was just wondering what people's strategies are for dealing with these guys?

[Kurisu313]

Really? A Squad of 5 Lords by themselves? That seems preposterously easy to deal with considering how much they cost, as they have only 1 wound each.

I mean, thats 265pts minimum, right? Plus at least one Res Orb. Just shoot them to death. Sure, they're T5, but they're 5 1W models, with only a 3+*. Even killing 1-3 will make a big impact on their CC ability.

If for some reason that fails, the goal is to avoid letting them attack your elites. Realistically you want them fighting trash (where they can't make their points back) or tarpits, which can overwhelm them with numbers.

*If they have a 2+ or a 3++, then laugh more as that's a huge waste of points.

[Memnos]

Which army are you talking about?

It would be easier to give you specific tactics based on that. If your army is Orks, we'll suggest something very different than if you field a single Wolfhound titan.

[Bunnahabhain]

I second Kurisu313. Shoot them dead. Shoot them very dead*. The only time you might want to engage them in CC is if you have a big low quality unit- 30 Ork mobs or 31 man guard tarpit blobs spring to mind, as they're the units mindshackles won't do much to.

* as Guard player, I am biased, as this is the answer to everything....

[Alsiaie]

MSS can have diminishing returns as you add more to one unit. When taking a unit of them it nearly impossible to avoid having more than 1 model in base contact with the MSS or even multiple MSS. Multiple base contact decreases the chance of hitting specialist models. It also increases the chance that multiple MSS may stack on a single enemy model. The MSS test can be taken multiple times but it is still only D3 hits whether you fail one test or 5. This means that 10 models fighting 5 MSS lords have a chance of only having 3 of 10 models affected by MSS. It may even be less depending on how the randomization favors you. Unless they charge from a ghost ark you failed to kill,5 MSS lords should pose little threat. A royal court can't start in a ghost ark either during deployment unless the models are attached to the unit the ark was purchased for. This will eliminate the ability to charge on turn 1 since the lords can't embark and disembark in the same turn. There is a slim chance that all 5 will even make it into HtH before getting shot first. Even with a res orb and ever living I can't see them withstanding an incredible amount of fire power. Push comes to shove you may have to throw a cheap unit at it to bait it out of cover and/or into rapid fire range to dispose of it.

[Spring heeled Jack]

Not Quite. Your rather accurate though your response obviously favors a side of the argument that you lean your liking to.

Facts. Your models do not need to be in Base to Base with each their own unit during CC.
Opinion. You made it sound like each Necron lord model would be in base to base with the same enemy models as each other. Yielding only a possible 3 affected.
Addendum. Yes its possible to get only 3 but CC is always choppy and majority of the time each Necron Lord will have his own models in Base contact not messing with other MSS results.

Facts. A Royal court does not have to be Fielded as a Single unit but may be placed in separately or together any of the following units, Warriors, Immortals, Lychguard, Death marks.
Necron Lords are not IC's and there for only count as squad upgrade models.
Opinion. If used correctly this can Yield very high CC results with units such as the Lychguard.

Facts. MSS Deal D3 hits not attacks against his allies during his Initiative. With his weapon stats I.E. Powerfist, power weapon ect.
Opinion. That 5 Necron Lords could only deal D3 hits with 5 MSS. You made its seem as though its very likely that all 5 MSS would often randomly select the same model who is Some how in Base to Base with 5 Necron lords out of a squad of 10. This is honestly a near Impossibility if your using the BRB and no homebrew rules sets.
Addendum. Im not trying to call you out. I just feel that you should give more realistic answers to someone who is genuinely asking for advice instead of hypothetical near impossibilities.

To hopefully help clear up some issues with some of the questions about how to best answer this Topic, I propose a scenario to help Chapters Unwritten. The Necron lords 5, Are paling around with Lychguard, in a Night scyth, it has just moved across the table on turn one and blasted away at a squad, Your playing Your favorite Marine Chapter (Which ever is fine) The squad fell back off the point but will return next turn do to ATSKNF. The LychGuard and Lords have bailed out, unable to charge this turn since the Night Sycth is not a open topped vehicle. The 5 Necron lords open up with their staffs of light, Dealing 15 ranged attacks at the retreating Marines currently at 7 models, 9 shots hit at S 5 Ap 3, 4 Wound leaving the Squad at 3. You need to keep this point. But obviously your unit of 3 needs support. What do you do Marine? What do you do?

[Kevlar]

To hopefully help clear up some issues with some of the questions about how to best answer this Topic, I propose a scenario to help Chapters Unwritten. The Necron lords 5, Are paling around with Lychguard, in a Night scyth, it has just moved across the table on turn one and blasted away at a squad, Your playing Your favorite Marine Chapter (Which ever is fine) The squad fell back off the point but will return next turn do to ATSKNF. The LychGuard and Lords have bailed out, unable to charge this turn since the Night Sycth is not a open topped vehicle. The 5 Necron lords open up with their staffs of light, Dealing 15 ranged attacks at the retreating Marines currently at 7 models, 9 shots hit at S 5 Ap 3, 4 Wound leaving the Squad at 3. You need to keep this point. But obviously your unit of 3 needs support. What do you do Marine? What do you do?

1. How did they pop the rhino the marines were in?

2. If they popped the plague marine rhino with the night scythe there would be 5 plague marines left. 15 shots, 9 hits, 4.5 wounds, 2.2 wounded after cover from the rhino or crater, 1.1 dead after feel no pain.

3. Then I charge you with the 4 plague marines, making sure all the MSS lords are touched by a plague marine. Then on the sides of the unit I bring in a couple of demon princes and a couple of units of berzerkers with power fist champs. The fist champs stay in the back and just lend supporting attacks to the melee, so you are only going to MSS 4 plague marines, who cares, they can't even hurt themselves, and a chance at 2 berzerkers. Then you are taking 10 S6 monstrous attacks, 64 str 5 berzerker attacks, however many plague marines don't hit themselves attacks, and 8 str 9 powerfist attacks. Good luck!

[Spring heeled Jack]

1. How did they pop the rhino the marines were in?

2. If they popped the plague marine rhino with the night scythe there would be 5 plague marines left. 15 shots, 9 hits, 4.5 wounds, 2.2 wounded after cover from the rhino or crater, 1.1 dead after feel no pain.

3. Then I charge you with the 4 plague marines, making sure all the MSS lords are touched by a plague marine. Then on the sides of the unit I bring in a couple of demon princes and a couple of units of berzerkers with power fist champs. The fist champs stay in the back and just lend supporting attacks to the melee, so you are only going to MSS 4 plague marines, who cares, they can't even hurt themselves, and a chance at 2 berzerkers. Then you are taking 10 S6 monstrous attacks, 64 str 5 berzerker attacks, however many plague marines don't hit themselves attacks, and 8 str 9 powerfist attacks. Good luck!

Wow, your upset.
1. Easy its armor 11. Second The scenario didnt say they were in a rhino so deal.
2. My mathhammer was swayed to account for a level of fun rather than pure math. If were going math yours is straight flawed. Heres the load out. 15 shots create 10 hits with BS 4, which makes 5 straight wounds because 50% of 10 is 5 not 4.5. If your going to change the math do the math right. You cant expect to have cover when you want it and not when you dont. So 1 dead after cover and feel no pain. IF your going to be like that.
3. You charge with the 4 plague marines, and "YOU" dont get to decide where I put my lords, I do since its a mixed unit and they are not all going to be deployed straight in the front and i get to consolidate into CC. So My MSS hit two of your Plague marines, making sure to hit the one with a powerfist since noone takes plague marines without. He fails since the average on 3d6 is 12 as does the other marine touched. So You charge with Two deamon princes who make Base to Base and I still get to shuffle around to make sure were all stuck in, so ive got on MSS on each. They each fail again because of HARD math, but to be fair one succeeds or I dont manage to get both MSS covering my flanks. Im nice like that . However Deamon Princes dont have grenades so they go last in initiative since were in cover. Two whole units of Berserkers trying to make it into the CC when im surrounded by two MC's and a unit of 4 plague Marines? Now thats way too out there...maybe one unit. Ill give you that. But at least one MSS touches a unit taking out 4 of your attacks and delivering more punishment to your guys.

So now math time, 8 Berzerkers throw out 32 normal attacks, In which 16 hit, in Which 8 wound, 2.4 or 2 rounded to the nearest (the way math works) fall. The MSS delivers 2 hits on your Berzerkers, both wounds since its S5 to T4 but youve got the best odds to not be killed since your sv is a 3+. so 1 dies after the math. Its closest to 1 after rounding.

Now the Plague marines deliver 4 attacks on the Lychguard / Lord unit. And 2 hit and 1 wounds which is saved. However 4 hits come from the MSS and 1.5 wound. so either way its a toss up. Lets go with 2 for fun. 1 armour saves the other feel no pains it, no one dies. But if one of those plague marines had a powerfist and they almost always do, then the math would go like this. 4 hits 2 from a powerfist. 3 wounds, 2 from a powerfist. 1 armour save if unlucky then saved from feel no pain. but 2 casualties do to powerfist.

Now in initiative order its the Necrons. 9 Lychguard and 4 Lords. 6 lych guard attack the MC's 2 on the berzerkers, and 1 on the plague marines, 1 Lord against the 1 of the Mc's, 2 on the Plague marines, and 1 on the berzerkers.

Plague marines result. 2 from the lych guard result in 1 hit and 1 wound from a S7 power attack, 1 marine dies. The 2 Lords throw out 4 attacks and 2 hit and 1 wounds, the wound is saved from a combo of armour and or feel no pain. end of Combat, 1 or 3 plague marines removed depending on powerfist and no casualties caused. (Overall)

Berzerkers result. 4 attacks from the Lych guard makes 2 hits and 2 wounds, from power weapons so 2 removed. Lord delivers 2 attacks 1 hits and 1 wound from which its saved. Berzerker with power fist retaliates with 4 attacks hitting with 2 wounding 2 and two necrons go down. End of combat 3 berzerkers and 4 necron fall (overall)

Monstrous creatures result. The MSS that worked doesnt do anything but cease his attacks wince hes not in a unit. so only 1 Lychguard that inst touched by 1 or more different units has to attack, attacks the MC. with 2 attacks, 1 hit and 1 wound, and 5+ invulnerable is unlikely so doesnt work, MC takes a wound.
Monstrous creature that can attack but moved thru Difficult terrain and doesnt have grenades has to wait for I 1 before attacking. So 5 Lychguard and one Lord attacks. Lychguard send out 10 attacks, 5 hit, 4 wounds, 1 save from the invunerable. Lord attacks with 2 attacks , 1 hit. 1 wound. Deamon lord saves. Deamon lord retaliates with 5 attacks which 3 hits and 2 wound, 2 necrons fall. Demon lord 2 Necron 3 (Overall)

End of combat, Plague marines must take 1 or 3 extra saves for loosing combat.
Berzerkers win by 1.
Both MC's have to save against another wound.
Six necrons fall of which 3 get back up. 6 Marines fall, none get back up, and 4 wounds delivered to the Mc's
Round two will utilize the MSS again and each of your units will lose attacks due to not charging but the Necrons will yield the same number of attacks. If you cant win with the advantage, how do you expect to win when we are on even ground?

[Tethylis]

If you cant win with the advantage, how do you expect to win when we are on even ground?

I'd claim an automatic win due to your unit composition, 10 lychguard & 5 lords is in no way a codex legal unit.

Only one member of the royal court can join each unit in this manner

[Kevlar]

3. You charge with the 4 plague marines, and "YOU" dont get to decide where I put my lords, I do since its a mixed unit and they are not all going to be deployed straight in the front and i get to consolidate into CC.

I guess you never heard of lash of slaanesh. I most certainly do get to position your models any way I like within 4d6 inches of where they start. I can spread them out, bunch them up, conga line them so that any ICs are more than 8 inches away and out of supporting attack range. And with no gloom prism riding on your night scythe you can't do anything about it.

[DJ3]

Just to clarify:

The Necron lords 5, Are paling around with Lychguard, in a Night scyth

Wow, your upset.

2. My mathhammer was swayed to account for a level of fun rather than pure math.

Apparently you didnt read the Errata. LOLz

I'm rather certain this fellow is trolling you. I'd stop putting so much thought into your responses to him and, preferably, just not respond in the first place.

[rocdocta]

i run necrons and the easiest way to remove them is shooting. however any necron worth his orbs will:

1. put them in an ark turn 1 for a 2nd turn assault.
2. have a screen of wraiths in front of the lords when on foot for the cover save. said wraiths will then support lords in combat and reduce init to 1.

however a great way to take them out of the battle is with large chaff units ie IG conscripts with a commie. who cares if 1 attacker loses his attacks and attacks his own unit. 4+ to wound and a 5+ save or 4+ save.however you may lose 1 per lord if unlucky ie 2 hits *5 =10 = 5 wounds = 2 or 3 dead connies at the most. as long as the power weapons are not in base contact they will clean up if you can roll the 6 to wound.

but really buckets and buckets of high str shots/supporting attacks will whittle them down.

[Chapters Unwritten]

The above is exactly what he did, but he also had a Cryptek and an Overlord with them which made things tougher. He engaged my T-wolves which was smart because there are so few models it basically made it so that I couldn't hit back. The big throwaway type of unit is a good counter, it seems.

[rocdocta]

also be aware that using wraiths to assist, a canny MSS OLord can snipe out key models. ie if there is a power weapon the Olord only engage the power weapon and the wraiths engage all others and hey presto the random model in base contact is the PW guy. powerfists can also be sniped out and prove deadly. MSS lords dont need to worry too much but it can still be done.

[Kevlar]

also be aware that using wraiths to assist, a canny MSS OLord can snipe out key models. ie if there is a power weapon the Olord only engage the power weapon and the wraiths engage all others and hey presto the random model in base contact is the PW guy. powerfists can also be sniped out and prove deadly. MSS lords dont need to worry too much but it can still be done.

Thats why a canny marine player will always completely surround his fist guy with all the other guys. Why would you ever put him in the front of the unit?

[rocdocta]

Thats why a canny marine player will always completely surround his fist guy with all the other guys. Why would you ever put him in the front of the unit?

they dont, but during the game casualties from shooting etc may mean that there may be an opening. a Olord on a barge and 5 wraiths are pretty good for getting where they need to be. an easy tactic is Olord flies over, kills two, the barge shoots with the gauss cannon kills 1 and this will often open up a gap. its why my Olord+barge and wraiths are my MVP.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

I have to say, the ability of Necrons to get their MSS's into the correct position seems rather overstated by most 'net descriptions of its effects.

[DJ3]

I have to say, the ability of Necrons to get their MSS's into the correct position seems rather overstated by most 'net descriptions of its effects.

More like 99% of players aren't used to the positioning of their models being so important in terms of Assault, or just don't have the necessary understanding of the Assault Movement rules to take such things into account in the first place.

It's real easy to say "Mindshackle Scarabs shouldn't work at optimal levels because it's hypothetically easy to avoid," but it's a whole 'nother thing to actually have people learn how to handle that situation properly in practice. Everyone's pretty accustomed to the previous five years of lazy-ass "eh, I'll just put the most important guys in front"-style arrangement of their models by this point, and it's making for rather easy pickings in terms of MSS for the foreseeable future.

But anyhow, these mythical 5-MSS units are mostly the kind of thing we joke about sarcastically in the Necron Tactica, rather than something that should ever be fielded seriously. If you're getting killed by it, it's solely because you can't turn off the "PUNCH IT IN THE FACE WITH MY DEATHSTAR!@!#!@" part of your brain, because absolutely any other reaction to it is the proper counter.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

More like 99% of players aren't used to the positioning of their models being so important in terms of Assault, or just don't have the necessary understanding of the Assault Movement rules to take such things into account in the first place.

I guess I've played enough "keep that fist away from my IC" that it seems perfectly natural to stuff a pud on a 'Lord and leave it there.

[Chapters Unwritten]

While I appreciate you telling me pretty directly that I'm just an incompetent player, there are a few things you should bear in mind while doing so:

Firstly, I and the player I played against both quite literally learned the game together, and we have both been playing for several years now. So player skill level is roughly equivalent.

Secondly, in the situation I referred to in the original post, I got charged after trying to shoot the unit down a bit. I vindicated a few of them but, surprise surprise, they got back up. So, I didn't blindly throw my T-wolves into the squad. I tried to avoid them, and failed. Units like Thunderwolves are easy to get into position for MSS ownage; any unit with a small enough number of models is. This is not barring the fact that you are supposed to pile in after combat and charge react before. By the second turn of combat I see 10 man units almost completely engaged in b2b all the time because of these bits.

Thirdly, if this unit excels at manhandling deathstars and wound allocation-centric units, doesn't that make it have a clear and highly sought after use, rather than being a joke unit?

Again, I appreciate your input and all, but a unit that can potentially make 5 of your models not only not hit in CC, but hit themselves, seems like it is a pretty ugly problem to me. Now of course in my case I was pretty unfortunate; the T-wolves are ld8, and I didn't whittle the unit at all, plus he had them accompanied by a standard Overlord and Cryptek which added some capabilities.

You are right though. Lots of people don't fully understand the assault movement rules. Particularly the bit where models have to do charge reaction moves and pile in moves to b2b, and where ICs are first in those cases typically. So yeah. I think maybe cracking wise about the "suspicious" nature of how easy it is to get these guys into a good position in the combat is something you might want to think twice about.