Fighting Mindshackle Scarabs

[Kurisu313]

While I appreciate you telling me pretty directly that I'm just an incompetent player, there are a few things you should bear in mind while doing so:

Ok, let's not get too defensive now. This isn't a slight about your competence, but the fact that you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

A unit of 5 Necron Lords is ~bad~. Like horrifically bad. It has one potential use, which is countering small, elite units, such as Thunderwolves, which is compounded by poor Ld.

So it curbstomped you, big deal. Stuff happens. Doesn't mean that you're a bad player because you don't see the danger in a new tactic the first game you see it.

What's annoying is that you ask a vague question, giving no specifics, such as your army, then come back screaming that people aren't factoring the specifics into their equations.

For instance, you've given no indication as to their armament. Were they armed with Staffs of light or warscythes? If the latter, the unit costs at least 315pts with 5 scythes and a res orb. Thats an horrendous points cost for a small, vulnerable, slow unit that is only good at killing specific units. How much did those Thunderwolves cost? Did the Lords kill more of your stuff or was that it? Did you even lose the game?

You mention that they had an Overlord and Cryptek with them, which made things tougher. Why? Thats now at least 450pts in one place! Even to agree that they're an unbeatable unit ignores that you can ignore them, and hammer the rest of their army! Feed them something cheap to occupy them if you have to. If you can identify their transport, then hammer it with all those nasty Long Fangs. A Ghost Ark is AV13, but open-topped and only a single Immobilized result is neccesary to cripple their movements. Not to mention that the first successful hits makes killing it so much easier.

In the end of the day, you have to kill 5 T5 1W models, 1 T5 3W model, and 1 T4 1W model. They probably have a res orb, so get back up on a 4+, so its pretty much like doubling the wounds. You can't use an elite close combat units to kill them, but anything else will, at least in a points efficient trade. It takes an average of 27 bolter rounds to put down a single lord so I wouldn't advise that either.

As a Space Wolf player, you'll have a harder time than a Guard or Nid player, for sure, as bolters and blades is so much of your army, but you still have a lot of powerful shooting (Vindicators, Long Fangs) and cheap chaff (Fenrisian Wolves), so whittling them down or bogging them is all possible. Once there is only one or two left, then you can consider breaking them in one go.

I hope that is helpful.

[Chapters Unwritten]

I apologize for being defensive, but even your post implies that, essentially, if I were a good/smart/capable player, I would have steamrolled the unit. Not that it is your intention, but it is clearly the overarching idea presented in it -- why didn't I do X/Y/Z and win the day?

Ultimately, the unit takes away your ability to attack in CC to a degree that makes it unlikely to beat them with anything of the HQ/Elite variety. I fail to see how anything else will kill them when the elites can't, however. A unit of Fenrisian Wolves would hold them, possibly, but I wouldn't expect them to actually defeat them. The Lords' attacks, outside of MSS, are pretty devastating to the average MEQ unit. No armor saves, Str7, 3 each on the charge, right? Not including the Lord? Basically, if those guys get ahold of any MEQ unit in my army, it is doomed.

I can only avoid them for so long with all the open-topped skimmers about. I was hoping there was a better counter but one thing is pretty clear, I obviously MUST kill this unit first every battle.

[Chapters Unwritten]

I apologize for being defensive, but even your post implies that, essentially, if I were a good/smart/capable player, I would have steamrolled the unit. Not that it is your intention, but it is clearly the overarching idea presented in it -- why didn't I do X/Y/Z and win the day?

Ultimately, the unit takes away your ability to attack in CC to a degree that makes it unlikely to beat them with anything of the HQ/Elite variety. I fail to see how anything else will kill them when the elites can't, however. A unit of Fenrisian Wolves would hold them, possibly, but I wouldn't expect them to actually defeat them. The Lords' attacks, outside of MSS, are pretty devastating to the average MEQ unit. No armor saves, Str7, 3 each on the charge, right? Not including the Lord? Basically, if those guys get ahold of any MEQ unit in my army, it is doomed.

I can only avoid them for so long with all the open-topped skimmers about. I was hoping there was a better counter but one thing is pretty clear, I obviously MUST kill this unit first every battle.

[Theocracity]

I can only avoid them for so long with all the open-topped skimmers about. I was hoping there was a better counter but one thing is pretty clear, I obviously MUST kill this unit first every battle.

Well, as long as 'this unit' means the skimmer they're riding in, yes. After that you can avoid them all you like.

Think about it this way: you defeat this unit in the Movement phase, not the Assault phase.

[Chapters Unwritten]

Being able to ignore it or light it up at a leisurely pace seems to be the key. I was more curious what people themselves do against it, but when I asked I had no idea this was the sort of unit no one fields.

[Theocracity]

Being able to ignore it or light it up at a leisurely pace seems to be the key. I was more curious what people themselves do against it, but when I asked I had no idea this was the sort of unit no one fields.

Well, no one who plays 'competetively' uses it, as the metagame strategies used by that kind of player already account for it. It's something you can see in more casual play, and you can use competetive strategies to neuter it. You'll still see MSS used, but not necessarily on pure Lord-blobs.

A fun way to think of it is that Assault units are like dogs. Generally, it's the bigger dog that wins the fight. But MSS lords are skunks. It doesn't matter how big the dog is, the skunk is probably going to win because it's fighting a different game.

[ColShaw]

A fun way to think of it is that Assault units are like dogs. Generally, it's the bigger dog that wins the fight. But MSS lords are skunks. It doesn't matter how big the dog is, the skunk is probably going to win because it's fighting a different game.

Good analogy!

...and the hunter with the .22 wins against the skunk. *BLAM*

[Bunnahabhain]

Good analogy!

...and the hunter with the .22 wins against the skunk. *BLAM*

Far too much precision. Surely the correct analogy is a 12 gauge shotgun, to put holes in both the target, and quite a bit of the surrounding area...

[13th guest]

I fail to see how anything else will kill them when the elites can't, however.

There are several units in different armies that do just this. Wyches in Dark eldar also will struggle against generic troops where their special rules have little effect, but excell against small elite units.

[rocdocta]

Ultimately, the unit takes away your ability to attack in CC to a degree that makes it unlikely to beat them with anything of the HQ/Elite variety. I fail to see how anything else will kill them when the elites can't, however. A unit of Fenrisian Wolves would hold them, possibly, but I wouldn't expect them to actually defeat them. The Lords' attacks, outside of MSS, are pretty devastating to the average MEQ unit. No armor saves, Str7, 3 each on the charge, right? Not including the Lord? Basically, if those guys get ahold of any MEQ unit in my army, it is doomed.

I can only avoid them for so long with all the open-topped skimmers about. I was hoping there was a better counter but one thing is pretty clear, I obviously MUST kill this unit first every battle.

well yes and no. the key to beating the MSS blob is to have it in contact with non power weapons and the power weapons support. this way you have:

5 MSS lords in base contact. say all fail their test for ease. in the worst case scenario 3 hits achieved. thats a total of 15 hits = 8 wounds = 3 failed saves. those 3 dead are taken from the shackled models. the lords get 2 attacks if you charge them. 10 attacks hitting on 4s = 5 hits = 4 dead marines. And that is if they lost no models from shooting or initiative in combat. so 7 dead marines and maybe 2 or 3 dead lords. But the lords cost alot more leaving the marines alot more to chop other units/cap obj up.

for the same points you could get what 20 genestealers? They would roll the lords and disallow a WBB when they jump all over their corpeses. large units with a good armour save vs their own MSS damage and lots of attacks nueters the lord blob.

[Infidel]

well yes and no. the key to beating the MSS blob is to have it in contact with non power weapons and the power weapons support. this way you have:

5 MSS lords in base contact. say all fail their test for ease. in the worst case scenario 3 hits achieved. thats a total of 15 hits = 8 wounds = 3 failed saves. those 3 dead are taken from the shackled models. the lords get 2 attacks if you charge them. 10 attacks hitting on 4s = 5 hits = 4 dead marines. And that is if they lost no models from shooting or initiative in combat. so 7 dead marines and maybe 2 or 3 dead lords. But the lords cost alot more leaving the marines alot more to chop other units/cap obj up.

for the same points you could get what 20 genestealers? They would roll the lords and disallow a WBB when they jump all over their corpeses. large units with a good armour save vs their own MSS damage and lots of attacks nueters the lord blob.

5 shackled models leave you with just 5 models to attack, assuming 3 attacks each, that's 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 2.5 wounds, .833 failed save. The marines would lose by 6~7 wounds for no damage to the lords. MEQs are not gonna cut it when it comes to 'hording down' the lords.

Genestealers and gaunts and Boyz on the other hand, would do a splendid job, but these things are much easier to kill from afar than Marines.

[Kevlar]

5 shackled models leave you with just 5 models to attack, assuming 3 attacks each, that's 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 2.5 wounds, .833 failed save. The marines would lose by 6~7 wounds for no damage to the lords. MEQs are not gonna cut it when it comes to 'hording down' the lords.

Genestealers and gaunts and Boyz on the other hand, would do a splendid job, but these things are much easier to kill from afar than Marines.

I think his point was, that unit is so expensive you multicharge it. Hit it with 2 or 3 units and its going down. If you hit it with 2 squads of berzerkers and each one has a fist they will make short work of it.

[Xerkics]

I ran a royal court with overlord 5 fullly upgraded lords and defencive grenades / lightning field crypteks in it it was about 750 points i think. I done it for fun since i could have so much more for the same points in that list like : wraiths annihilation barges more immortals etc gave them all 2+ 3++ saves and ghost arc but a single plasma cannon from a obliterator almost killed them all. Its good against marine players who love their honour guard chapter master/assault terminators too much and it was fun to run it but its not something id run again as its just not cost effective considering necrons have a lot of much cheaper super aggressive stuff. That is why you wont run it like that and your lords are better placed supporting your units.

[USER1]

Hang on a sec. Your playing space wolves and getting owned by a group of very expensive models with I2 and cant think how to counter it?

Initiative 2...

[ColShaw]

Hang on a sec. Your playing space wolves and getting owned by a group of very expensive models with I2 and cant think how to counter it?

Initiative 2...

*insert theme music from JAWS*

[Chapters Unwritten]

Hang on a sec. Your playing space wolves and getting owned by a group of very expensive models with I2 and cant think how to counter it?

Initiative 2...

Again, I appreciate the questioning of my competence as a player. -_- However, like I said before, all of my models failed tests and couldn't attack. Repeatedly. For three turns, in fact.

Since Jaws can't target units in transports or in combat it isn't a plausible solution.

[Bunnahabhain]

Can't Jaws, however, target a unit not in combat, and then just happen to hit whatever is on the line?

[Reivax26]

I am playing my Tau for the first time in a tournament a week from today and I can guarantee you that if I draw Necrons the first thing I am going to do is shoot down all his transports. If someone wants to spend 400 plus points on some ridiculous squad with 5 guys that all have 1 wound that's fine by me. Go ahead and throw away the points. I understand what happened to your Wolves sucks but sadly that is part of the game. I had 2 Independent Characters roll snake eyes to test for difficult terrain one right after the other in a tournament game where I could have won if either would have rolled a 2 lol. It happens.

[Spring heeled Jack]

Not Quite. Your rather accurate though your response obviously favors a side of the argument that you lean your liking to.

Facts. Your models do not need to be in Base to Base with each their own unit during CC.
Opinion. You made it sound like each Necron lord model would be in base to base with the same enemy models as each other. Yielding only a possible 3 affected.
Addendum. Yes its possible to get only 3 but CC is always choppy and majority of the time each Necron Lord will have his own models in Base contact not messing with other MSS results.

Facts. A Royal court does not have to be Fielded as a Single unit but may be placed in separately or together any of the following units, Warriors, Immortals, Lychguard, Death marks.
Necron Lords are not IC's and there for only count as squad upgrade models.
Opinion. If used correctly this can Yield very high CC results with units such as the Lychguard.

Facts. MSS Deal D3 hits not attacks against his allies during his Initiative. With his weapon stats I.E. Powerfist, power weapon ect.
Opinion. That 5 Necron Lords could only deal D3 hits with 5 MSS. You made its seem as though its very likely that all 5 MSS would often randomly select the same model who is Some how in Base to Base with 5 Necron lords out of a squad of 10. This is honestly a near Impossibility if your using the BRB and no homebrew rules sets.
Addendum. Im not trying to call you out. I just feel that you should give more realistic answers to someone who is genuinely asking for advice instead of hypothetical near impossibilities.

To hopefully help clear up some issues with some of the questions about how to best answer this Topic, I propose a scenario to help Chapters Unwritten. The Necron lords 5, Are paling around with Lychguard, in a Night scyth, it has just moved across the table on turn one and blasted away at a squad, Your playing Your favorite Marine Chapter (Which ever is fine) The squad fell back off the point but will return next turn do to ATSKNF. The LychGuard and Lords have bailed out, unable to charge this turn since the Night Sycth is not a open topped vehicle. The 5 Necron lords open up with their staffs of light, Dealing 15 ranged attacks at the retreating Marines currently at 7 models, 9 shots hit at S 5 Ap 3, 4 Wound leaving the Squad at 3. You need to keep this point. But obviously your unit of 3 needs support. What do you do Marine? What do you do?

[Kevlar]

To hopefully help clear up some issues with some of the questions about how to best answer this Topic, I propose a scenario to help Chapters Unwritten. The Necron lords 5, Are paling around with Lychguard, in a Night scyth, it has just moved across the table on turn one and blasted away at a squad, Your playing Your favorite Marine Chapter (Which ever is fine) The squad fell back off the point but will return next turn do to ATSKNF. The LychGuard and Lords have bailed out, unable to charge this turn since the Night Sycth is not a open topped vehicle. The 5 Necron lords open up with their staffs of light, Dealing 15 ranged attacks at the retreating Marines currently at 7 models, 9 shots hit at S 5 Ap 3, 4 Wound leaving the Squad at 3. You need to keep this point. But obviously your unit of 3 needs support. What do you do Marine? What do you do?

1. How did they pop the rhino the marines were in?

2. If they popped the plague marine rhino with the night scythe there would be 5 plague marines left. 15 shots, 9 hits, 4.5 wounds, 2.2 wounded after cover from the rhino or crater, 1.1 dead after feel no pain.

3. Then I charge you with the 4 plague marines, making sure all the MSS lords are touched by a plague marine. Then on the sides of the unit I bring in a couple of demon princes and a couple of units of berzerkers with power fist champs. The fist champs stay in the back and just lend supporting attacks to the melee, so you are only going to MSS 4 plague marines, who cares, they can't even hurt themselves, and a chance at 2 berzerkers. Then you are taking 10 S6 monstrous attacks, 64 str 5 berzerker attacks, however many plague marines don't hit themselves attacks, and 8 str 9 powerfist attacks. Good luck!