Army Builder Tyranny?

[Chapters Unwritten]

First and foremost, I'm intending this to be strictly a discussion of viable technological alternatives, so the obvious suggestion to not use a computer is not going to amount to much)

So. I am a "computer guy"...as such, I am constantly reworking/updating my technology situation, and use multiple machines all the time. I have also been a faithful customer of Army Builder's for several years now. And just recently I once again had to migrate my license as I acquired a new machine, and once again I had to go download Army Builder, once again with an expired license. The latest version is 3.3, and I re-purchased a fresh license at 3.2, so I did not expect to have much trouble; download 3.2, put in my codes, get on with my life.

Nope. The 3.2 download is gone. Forcing me to buy the program all over again for an update I do not want, while meanwhile the good folks at ab40k.org do all the work and likely don't see a dime of the money.

Flustered, I made my way to the 3.1 download. 3.1 installs, I put in my license, hunky-dory. Then I go to download the update for ab40k's module - manually, of course, because my license is outdated - and I find that for some time now the format has been made such that it will not function with version 3.1.

So this is it. The draconian licensing scheme of Army Builder has fed me up to the point of surrender. I have decided, after being forced to pay for the product more than 5 times over the years due to licensing snafus, that I am finished with it. This product, if it is going to be a yearly subscription fee, should be far less expensive, and moreover, I should not be forced against my will to have to update the product, nor conned by the app (as it often lets you download an update to the latest version but then installs as a trial and renders all of your old datafiles unusable).

I understand piracy is a concern but this product's licensing model is hugely restrictive. Even once you own the product you can only put it on two machines, and if you so happen to need to change what machine one of those licenses is used on, you are only allowed to do it once every four months. Microsoft is not allowed to make a version of Windows that no longer installs iTunes. It's monopolistic. Honda is not allowed to make a car that only works with one other company's gas. So why is Army Builder able to force me to update my program by rendering its old version obsolete at will? Why have I paid so much money to them over the years, when it is the diligent work of the people at ab40k.org that has made the product worth a damn? I would be much happier if I were paying the group that actually makes the updates we want, the codex updates, but I'm not. I run a gaming group with a large membership base and there isn't even any way I can get a bulk license for the group, like with other software.

So I have decided to not only not use this product, but to promote alternatives. First and foremost, I will point out to everyone that their old version, v2, has been diligently updated by various people and is able to be hacked. So do with that info what you will, fellow Warseers. I will also be doing my damnedest to create a virtual machine, which can be distributed to/accessed remotely by all of my club members, that uses one singular license paid for by the group.

Has anyone else had too many bad experiences to support this product financially any longer or am I in the minority?

[gunmnky]

I've been toying with the idea of writing a free-to-use, all-inclusive army builder/tracker to distribute to the public, just because I believe it should either be buy once or sold through GW with free army update codes in every codex/rulebook.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea.

[Gangremond]

I've been toying with the idea of writing a free-to-use, all-inclusive army builder/tracker to distribute to the public, just because I believe it should either be buy once or sold through GW with free army update codes in every codex/rulebook.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea.

This reminds me of the "Armies of the Imperium" and "Enemies of the Imperium" army building program that GW had years ago. Several years after they released it, they (GW) decided that they would no longer support it. So yes, I've got $80 or so wrapped up into this old program that GW didn't update.

I stopped using Army Builder years ago when my license expired and you had to start paying for updates. I use excel now. It rarely goes out of date...

If you write your own army builder program to distribute, then you have to purchase every codex and update your files with each new release.

[Ebon]

This reminds me of the "Armies of the Imperium" and "Enemies of the Imperium" army building program that GW had years ago. Several years after they released it, they (GW) decided that they would no longer support it. So yes, I've got $80 or so wrapped up into this old program that GW didn't update.

And they were pretty awful in the first place. I've still got them somewhere too. In the modern world where everyone and their dog has net access, Emperor only knows why GW don't do a proper army building program. They could even flog it exclusively via their website and achieve GW's dream: charging money for no physical product at all (I'm kidding (somewhat))! Seriously, it just seems like an obvious money maker. I doubt a program would take a huge amount of effort to code (says the guy who hasn't coded anything in over a decade), they could sell it in stores (maybe Imperium/Enemies for 40k and Order/Destruction for WFB) and offer updates for free from the site.

Personally, I'm using ArmyBuilder just because it's so damn easy to use.

[Charax]

Emperor only knows why GW don't do a proper army building program.

The IAL (Interactive Army List, GW's Army Builder alternative before they split it into two) was actually a decent program, nice interface (not quite as nice as AB), accepted user-created datafiles, some of which GW hosted, and it outputted a nice-looking list.

then someone thought "This is too good, we'll remove the ability to make your own datafiles, split it into two parts and then never update it"

[Ebon]

The IAL (Interactive Army List, GW's Army Builder alternative before they split it into two) was actually a decent program, nice interface (not quite as nice as AB), accepted user-created datafiles, some of which GW hosted, and it outputted a nice-looking list.

then someone thought "This is too good, we'll remove the ability to make your own datafiles, split it into two parts and then never update it"

That must have been before I had regular net access, the first version I remember was the one that put out in stores. Nice to know that GW shooting themselves in the foot isn't a recent thing though!

[Orthodox]

The IAL (Interactive Army List, GW's Army Builder alternative before they split it into two) was actually a decent program, nice interface (not quite as nice as AB), accepted user-created datafiles, some of which GW hosted, and it outputted a nice-looking list.

then someone thought "This is too good, we'll remove the ability to make your own datafiles, split it into two parts and then never update it"

Also when it built units it would yell "this unit meets all requirements" at you, and you'd know that you had met all requirements.

On the other hand, it was completely superfluous because I learned how to do simple arithmetic.

[stroller]

I've never seen any real advantage in using Army Builder. Shout me down if you will, but I've found excel to do everything I need to do. I dare say the OpenOffice equivalent would do the same for free. Yes, I know you have to set it up, but I never found army builder that eassy to instal, or to use, so I stopped years ago. Maybe different now, maybe not...

[BigbyWolf]

I've never seen any real advantage in using Army Builder. Shout me down if you will, but I've found excel to do everything I need to do. I dare say the OpenOffice equivalent would do the same for free. Yes, I know you have to set it up, but I never found army builder that eassy to instal, or to use, so I stopped years ago. Maybe different now, maybe not...

I'm the same, only without the Excel...what's wrong with a pen & paper?

[Draconis]

Its not the ability to type up your army that makes AB so nice. Its the idea that everything is only a mouse click away. I want to give this unit a special weapon? done. add the points up for me please.

To the OP, I agree, their licensing is atrocious, however, have you tried to contact them to see if they would offer a way for you to prove your purchase, and then download the license to your new machine?

[Konovalev]

I've never seen any real advantage in using Army Builder. Shout me down if you will, but I've found excel to do everything I need to do. I dare say the OpenOffice equivalent would do the same for free.

This. I use open offices excel equivalent Calc. I have no idea what anyone sees in armybuilder or any similar program. Seems like a waste of money to me.

[Dyrnwyn]

I've never seen any real advantage in using Army Builder. Shout me down if you will, but I've found excel to do everything I need to do. I dare say the OpenOffice equivalent would do the same for free. Yes, I know you have to set it up, but I never found army builder that eassy to instal, or to use, so I stopped years ago. Maybe different now, maybe not...

No shouting down intended, but AB did have it's uses. Do up an army, find you have 30 points free, you can quickly go back add and subtract options till you've filled up all your points. Fight against someone else's army who you suspect is over points, and you don't own every codex? Go home and check it on Army Builder. As far as building your armies, yeah, Exel, Calc, and Battlescribe all do the same thing for free. However, All of those have serious setup time behind them, and I have NEVER gotten Battlescribe to work properly on my phone. I only ever updated my AB license every 2-3 years, since I only had three armies, but I no longer use it as I no longer play very much 40k.

[Chapters Unwritten]

I am very interested in the idea of creating some sort of alternative, if only for the fact that I am deeply bothered by the idea of the ab40k guys getting no cut of the money. Now, I do not know if that is true, and I can only assume it is.

The first person who creates something of this sort usable on an iPhone is going to make a killing.

I am not much of a programmer but it seems to me that it is easy enough to create something to make army lists, as long as it doesn't actually do 40k-specific stuff. To be frank, if I ever did create such a thing I would rather ask GW to buy it from me and sell it than try to sell it myself. They make the game, after all.

I could create an elaborate Excel spreadsheet that does a list for my army, but I am not really talking about me. I represent a group and many of us have had countless horror stories with AB's administrative rules and regulations. The jump from 3.1 to 3.2 was especially horrid, as they sent out an email to tons of us happy, paid-up customers saying we'd have to re-buy the program to pay for several years of updates that they literally just didn't do. So I've full-on bought the program at least twice.

I don't know. Enough is enough. People use this product because there is no fair and viable alternative. I am tired of this being the case.

[gunmnky]

I am very interested in the idea of creating some sort of alternative, if only for the fact that I am deeply bothered by the idea of the ab40k guys getting no cut of the money. Now, I do not know if that is true, and I can only assume it is.

The first person who creates something of this sort usable on an iPhone is going to make a killing.

I am not much of a programmer but it seems to me that it is easy enough to create something to make army lists, as long as it doesn't actually do 40k-specific stuff. To be frank, if I ever did create such a thing I would rather ask GW to buy it from me and sell it than try to sell it myself. They make the game, after all.

I could create an elaborate Excel spreadsheet that does a list for my army, but I am not really talking about me. I represent a group and many of us have had countless horror stories with AB's administrative rules and regulations. The jump from 3.1 to 3.2 was especially horrid, as they sent out an email to tons of us happy, paid-up customers saying we'd have to re-buy the program to pay for several years of updates that they literally just didn't do. So I've full-on bought the program at least twice.

I don't know. Enough is enough. People use this product because there is no fair and viable alternative. I am tired of this being the case.

Games Workshop makes it very clear and states in no uncertain terms that nobody else can make money off of their IP, not even by advertising. This is why AB is developed separately from the army files that are distributed freely. But an app/web based solution that's free would put AB out of business over night. No installs, no licensing, everything is just right there and ready to use.

[red_zebra_ve]

Been a Mac user from day one, I use Excel for all my wargaming needs. I have a BIG spreadsheet with all the options for each my GW armies/miniature collection. It is a pain to change when a new army book comes around, but that is just once in a while (dark eldars!).
Excel lost some lustre when it lost Visual Basic Macros on MacOs, but it still works for me.

[Sgt John Keel]

Excel lost some lustre when it lost Visual Basic Macros on MacOs, but it still works for me.

IIRC, Office 2011 restored Visual Basic for Applications to the Mac OS X Office.

As for the topic, I find it far more effective to learn the codex by heart and use a basic text editor. Army Builder's output is ridiculously cluttered and hard to parse.

[Chapters Unwritten]

I have been in contact with them for various things of this nature many times. The fact is, just about every third time, the answer is that I have to pay more money. The most recent time, they even guided me to a "Purchase an additional secondary license" option, which did not do what I wanted to do (it added a third license, equally as expired as my original two...and their people pointed me to this option, literally robbing me of my $10 for a useless additional license).

I should not have to enter into a chain of emails and phone calls proving my identity and asking for help to use a product I have legally paid for. I don't have to call Microsoft every time I reinstall Windows; why does it seem I have to call Wolf Lair every time I reinstall Army Builder?

[Fithos]

When I was a Sophomore in college I made my own army builder for programming practice. It only handled IG and that was the last edition codex. When the new one came out I had been out of programming for just long enough that it seemed easier to just use excel and paper than to actually update it considering I don't get to play nearly as many games as I would like anymore and my list doesn't change very much even if I did.

It actually isn't to hard to make your own though. It is fairly simplistic programming, just very time consuming to create objects for all the different list choices and war gear and rules and any other information you feel the need to include.

[Mr Ogre]

I use Pen and Paper V1.0.

Or occasionally Word. And I get on just fine. :P

[Chapters Unwritten]

I am aware there are more basic alternatives, but none of them have the efficiency of an army building program. Why GW themselves do not create one, I can't fathom (I am aware of their old terri-bad one).

I am considering programming one myself, as was already mentioned the programming is pretty basic. If done right, it could be set up so that instead of having the entries programmed as part of the software, they could be entered into it.