Army Builder Tyranny?

[Cheexsta]

Battle scribe is pretty poor, misses out on many of the options etc.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

Really? I've not had any such problems with BattleScribe, though admittedly I only use it for a few armies.

Apparently an iOS version is on the horizon, too, which makes me happy (I don't mind using my Android phone, but I use my iPad more for wargaming purposes so would love to have all of that functionality on one device).

[Gangremond]

I've been toying with the idea of writing a free-to-use, all-inclusive army builder/tracker to distribute to the public, just because I believe it should either be buy once or sold through GW with free army update codes in every codex/rulebook.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea.

This reminds me of the "Armies of the Imperium" and "Enemies of the Imperium" army building program that GW had years ago. Several years after they released it, they (GW) decided that they would no longer support it. So yes, I've got $80 or so wrapped up into this old program that GW didn't update.

I stopped using Army Builder years ago when my license expired and you had to start paying for updates. I use excel now. It rarely goes out of date...

If you write your own army builder program to distribute, then you have to purchase every codex and update your files with each new release.

[Konovalev]

I've never seen any real advantage in using Army Builder. Shout me down if you will, but I've found excel to do everything I need to do. I dare say the OpenOffice equivalent would do the same for free.

This. I use open offices excel equivalent Calc. I have no idea what anyone sees in armybuilder or any similar program. Seems like a waste of money to me.

[Marshal]

Trying battlescribe now. Unfortunately some of the points are a little off. I WISH I could get Thunder Hammers for my Marshal for 1 point. Unfortunately this is not the case. Is there any way to manually edit such thing?

EDIT: I've also noticed that not all of the options are in there. Where's my options for my command squad sergeant? No powerfist or storm shield? The hell? It also adds on things wrong. Like furious charge is only 3 points for my whole command squad. Little over powering at that points? Maybe. This was only Templars I checked out mind you.

Checked out the Dark Eldar list. It keeps giving me weird errors saying my Trueborn have too many Venoms, they're only allowed 0 if greater than 5 guys (there were only 4 in the unit...) and that my Scourges have too many special weapons (there were 4 in a 10 man unit...)...

[Dwane Diblie]

I haven't looked yet but all the files are in XML (editable in Notepad or anyother text editor) and easy to locate in the BattleScribe directory. Have a go at it and see what happens.

[loveless]

Every 40K army builder I've used has been klunky - I may be spoiled by the fancy Warmachine/Hordes army builders out there that automatically update for me, though

I tend to use Excel - GW books last long enough without alteration that you could set-up basic lookup tables and put in basic information for upgrades to get a version that lasts for 5+ years.

Honestly, if someone got the logic down, you could distribute it without the correct point values, requiring the end user to do a one time data dump of point values before using the file.

[Marshal]

I haven't looked yet but all the files are in XML (editable in Notepad or anyother text editor) and easy to locate in the BattleScribe directory. Have a go at it and see what happens.

I've tried that, but it auto-updates them every time you load the program. I'm going to check and see if there is a way to stop that or not.

[Marshal]

Blah, I think I'll just stick with Excel myself. Much faster. Takes me probably about a minute or 2 to type out any army list from scratch with minimal effort. Far less cumbersome, and I can format it to look however I want.

[stroller]

I've never seen any real advantage in using Army Builder. Shout me down if you will, but I've found excel to do everything I need to do. I dare say the OpenOffice equivalent would do the same for free. Yes, I know you have to set it up, but I never found army builder that eassy to instal, or to use, so I stopped years ago. Maybe different now, maybe not...

I'm the same, only without the Excel...what's wrong with a pen & paper?

Yep. Pen & paper works for me just fine too. I use P&P for small/pickup games, excel for large battles/mucking about with my lists.

[Chapters Unwritten]

I think I wouldn't mind Excel so much if I could make it remember my various unit selections. I know that's plenty possible, but it's a pain. I wouldn't mind being able to have them all saved and then select them quickly. No matter how you slice it Army Builder is still much faster than a spreadsheet -- and the spreadsheet doesn't account for much outside of what you tell it, either. No way of validating and no way of checking other books' legality quickly - for me, as an event organizer - makes Excel and other "DIY" options impractical.

I think I will just proceed with my original plan, to install a real AB license on a virtual Linux machine and then distribute the virtual machine to people all over the world.

[Chem-Dog]

I use Pen and Paper V1.0.

I use V1.5. Automatic pencil lets me rub out mistakes and everything.
I didn't get on with Army Builder in the short time I used it. This is back in the IG Doctrine days where my Steel Legion would regularly slip off the bottom of the window.

This reminds me of the "Armies of the Imperium" and "Enemies of the Imperium" army building program that GW had years ago. Several years after they released it, they (GW) decided that they would no longer support it. So yes, I've got $80 or so wrapped up into this old program that GW didn't update.

This was and continues to be a distinct disappointment. I would happily pay for a separate army builder programme for each Codex I use provided that it was tweaked for free in line with any errata, changes and FAQ pronouncements that happened during the Codex's life (most likely in a cross edition scenario, for example)

The chance to buy an electronic version of a Codex on any of the E-Book platforms would be a start....

[Dyrnwyn]

I've never seen any real advantage in using Army Builder. Shout me down if you will, but I've found excel to do everything I need to do. I dare say the OpenOffice equivalent would do the same for free. Yes, I know you have to set it up, but I never found army builder that eassy to instal, or to use, so I stopped years ago. Maybe different now, maybe not...

No shouting down intended, but AB did have it's uses. Do up an army, find you have 30 points free, you can quickly go back add and subtract options till you've filled up all your points. Fight against someone else's army who you suspect is over points, and you don't own every codex? Go home and check it on Army Builder. As far as building your armies, yeah, Exel, Calc, and Battlescribe all do the same thing for free. However, All of those have serious setup time behind them, and I have NEVER gotten Battlescribe to work properly on my phone. I only ever updated my AB license every 2-3 years, since I only had three armies, but I no longer use it as I no longer play very much 40k.

[Askari]

I find BattleScribe great, so long as you keep up to date with the forum, and don't update automatically, if you want to avoid that, it's pretty good. I found it really easy to to alter any mistakes on the PC version and indeed, created my own datafile for Vampire Counts 8th Edition before the forums guys made a better version (their version has special rules listed as well as statlines).

[Chapters Unwritten]

This is all well and good but has only served to determine two things for me:

1.) Army Builder is the superior product,
and
2.) I can only use the others if I'm willing to live within their constraints.

Neither of these really addresses the terrible practices of AB's progenitors, but it is also clear from this thread that a majority of gamers would rather just not use their product, so I guess that speaks volumes.

[Askari]

This is all well and good but has only served to determine two things for me:

1.) Army Builder is the superior product,

I'm not sure why you consider this the case, BattleScribe is just as good, imo. You have to find the files elsewhere (and are updated by others elsewhere) for both.

[IAMNOTHERE]

I think part of the problem is effort/reward. AB builds and sells a programme that requires a second programme to work. So their income is dependent on either new customers or repeat business.

New customers are unfamiliar with the product and unless their semi techno savvy may be put off with messing around with programmes.

Repeat customers would likely replace/update when they got a new computer - not that many do rebuilds anymore, i used to reconfigure every couple of months.

As AB don't advertise ( I can't recall seeing an advert anywhere for this product ) I have difficulty seeing where the get the bulk of their customers from.

Essentially they put in some effort and get all the reward that 3rd parties take the hit for (army files). If these files are bad then AB doesn't get used and no repeat custom.

What I'm trying to say is enough players buy AB for them to keep churning out new versions (development time and cost), maybe you're just a glitch. Maybe its not worth their time to keep you as a customer if you've been complaining on and off and have atrack record of "unusual".

Personally I either pen and paper or spreadsheet the stuff. Quick and intuitive.

[Chapters Unwritten]

I'm not sure why you consider this the case, BattleScribe is just as good, imo. You have to find the files elsewhere (and are updated by others elsewhere) for both.

Army Builder validates your choices, outputs in more convenient formats (including BB code for boards like this, and iPhone-friendly minimalist web formats, plus index cards). These two things alone make it much more useful than other programs.

I think part of the problem is effort/reward. AB builds and sells a programme that requires a second programme to work. So their income is dependent on either new customers or repeat business.

New customers are unfamiliar with the product and unless their semi techno savvy may be put off with messing around with programmes.

Repeat customers would likely replace/update when they got a new computer - not that many do rebuilds anymore, i used to reconfigure every couple of months.

As AB don't advertise ( I can't recall seeing an advert anywhere for this product ) I have difficulty seeing where the get the bulk of their customers from.

Essentially they put in some effort and get all the reward that 3rd parties take the hit for (army files). If these files are bad then AB doesn't get used and no repeat custom.

What I'm trying to say is enough players buy AB for them to keep churning out new versions (development time and cost), maybe you're just a glitch. Maybe its not worth their time to keep you as a customer if you've been complaining on and off and have atrack record of "unusual".

Personally I either pen and paper or spreadsheet the stuff. Quick and intuitive.

You raise a valid point but I'm not arguing that the product is not a great product that fills a niche very nicely. It is the best army list software out there, far and away. I am just tired of buying it over and over again. The new updates have great features and are worth paying for, it will stand on its own merit; there was no need to force the ab40k team to make datafiles that are no longer compatible with certain versions, forcing you to pony up extra cash for the new one. I have Adobe InDesign CS4, which I bought with a student discount. The new one is much better and has better features, but I am allowed to continue to use this one; Adobe does not change the .ind file format each edition to make all my previous usage of the program invalid and force me to rebuy it.

The irony here is I would happily pay them X dollars a year for a subscription of some kind, IF it could be used from multiple locations on multiple machines, did not invalidate all of my old lists and data with each update, and make it so that the version of the program I have paid for is mysteriously no longer available for reinstallation.

I'm not saying the program's bad. The guys who build it certainly have no qualms about doing anything they can to further profit from it. In the end, the paying customer like me - a loyal supporter and proponent of the product - is the only one they hurt.

[Charax]

Well, making your own armybuilder isn't that difficult - Ajax/Java front end accessing a SQL database holding the list data, the hard bit comes from designing a database comprehensive enough to hold all the army list and validation data.

Personally, I'm fed up of all the programs and their licences or restrictions, I do everything by hand.

[Alaric Stormblade]

Learn German, use Onlinecodex.de (or download the source and translate it for yourself)

Yeah, that'll work.

[Ebon]

This reminds me of the "Armies of the Imperium" and "Enemies of the Imperium" army building program that GW had years ago. Several years after they released it, they (GW) decided that they would no longer support it. So yes, I've got $80 or so wrapped up into this old program that GW didn't update.

And they were pretty awful in the first place. I've still got them somewhere too. In the modern world where everyone and their dog has net access, Emperor only knows why GW don't do a proper army building program. They could even flog it exclusively via their website and achieve GW's dream: charging money for no physical product at all (I'm kidding (somewhat))! Seriously, it just seems like an obvious money maker. I doubt a program would take a huge amount of effort to code (says the guy who hasn't coded anything in over a decade), they could sell it in stores (maybe Imperium/Enemies for 40k and Order/Destruction for WFB) and offer updates for free from the site.

Personally, I'm using ArmyBuilder just because it's so damn easy to use.