why would you ever use a vanquisher cannon?

[Sgt John Keel]

Vanquishers are best used against heavier armored targets with Pask. BS4, and 2D6 pen means an average roll is 15, so enough to pen heavy armor.

Wouldn't that be 16 with his pseudo–Tank Hunters?

Luckily, I don't like the Vanquisher miniature so it is no great loss to me. I much prefer the Exterminator, which, while not spectacular, is still fairly usable.

[Bunnahabhain]

What kind of tables are you playing on? 6x4 is standard and renders virtually all ranges above 48" nearly irrelevant (though IMO that's a LOT different from claiming that "range is all but meaningless"). Certainly you're not going to meaningfully outrange fireprisms or hammerheads.

Agreed.

Also, with regards to range, look at the heavy AT at decent range competition:

Vendettas- 48" + faster movement+ scout/outflank

Manticore- 120" range and indirect fire too over 24"

The 72" range vanquisher-(but limited to 48" if you want to bring the hull lascannon into play) really doesn't stand out as that impressive.

[MyNameDidntFit]

Personally, I take a Pask Vanquisher fairly often. Now, this is in part just because I love the idea of the dedicated tank hunting tank, but it's also in part knowing that 2/3 turns, I'm going to penetrate a vehicle, no matter what it is and, the dice gods willing, kill a good few of those. It works and it works well--especially for those nasty things that have anti-infantry weapons on them, cutting out the chances of melta/p'fist/etc getting in there.

Oh, and it's always great when you out-shoot a Hammerhead... [grumble]even if the Hammerhead can get a 4+ cover for 5 points[/grumble].

[LegioDestructor]

What kind of tables are you playing on? 6x4 is standard and renders virtually all ranges above 48" nearly irrelevant (though IMO that's a LOT different from claiming that "range is all but meaningless").

True, everything usually ends up within range of heavy weapons by Turn 2 on a "standard" table, but that's something I always disliked about them. I preferred 8x4 and correspondingly larger games, so the longer range was more relevant and you could actually move in a direction other than 'vaguely towards the enemy'.

The OP asked why you'd take a Vanquisher, and the only real advantages I can see is the longer range, AV14, and the fact that is has hull and sponson weapon options. Even if you lose the turret gun, appropriate weapons turn your tank into a siege engine, or a mobile pillbox. Other than that, the options several of you have mentioned are indeed statistically better at the job. The Manticore and Vendetta are very good, but not good enough for me to use as a dedicated tank buster. Mostly because they are not the IG's go-to tank killing tank, that is the role of the Vanquisher and Laser Tank Destroyer.

Certainly you're not going to meaningfully outrange fireprisms or hammerheads.

Sometimes it happens, and when it does it's truly satisfying!

So I guess, I'd say use the Vanquisher if you really like tanks, and/or you want a dedicated long-ranged sniping unit mounted on a solid Av14 chassis with decent secondary weapon options. If you just want general AT, others have mentioned the brilliant alternatives.

[BrotherCaptainS]

Best way to use a vanquisher in my opinion is as follows:

leman russ vanquisher: Pask, w/ lascannon & multi melta sponsons

really heavy on points yes i know, but insanely effective against mech armies that like to assault. At range you have main gun and lascannon. How often is lascannon not in range? they hit 24" and the MMs take effect if they are lucky enough to hit 12" the vehicle dies every time. that is how I use it. Now it also doubles as a paladin instant death machine. They really hate this tank.

[stereynolds]

To kill a Land Raider Achilles? No other way in the Guard dex of realistically dealing with it other than demolishers/whatever the ordinance tank with S10 bunker buster shells is called.

[Eldoriath]

What is this nonsense about out-ranging an hammerhead? If anything it is the other way around when it comes to getting the first shot since it does have a 12" move as well as 72" range.

Also don't forget the medusa with bastion breacher shells is very effective. S10 AP1 and 2d6 penetration. Important part being AP1. Sure, it is a small blast and has a harder time of hitting, but it also adds a bit of versatility.

So, only reason for me to take the vanquisher is if I want a sturdy AT vehicle, but at the cost of 1½ medusa (2 if you take Pask) I'm not so certain about taking it in a standard list. But then of course, I regularly play with Pask in a Punisher because it's so much fun throwing 29 S5 and 3 S4 shots at BS4 on a unit when stationary ^^

[Getz]

I'm afraid bastion breacher shells are only AP 2

[ehlijen]

I'm afraid bastion breacher shells are only AP 2

Did they change that in an FAQ? My codex says AP1 (though the normal shells are AP2).

[Nurgling Chieftain]

Nah, Getz is just wrong. They're AP1.

[LegioDestructor]

leman russ vanquisher: Pask, w/ lascannon & multi melta sponsons

That's how I kitted out my Armoured Battlegroup HQ. Already Bs4 it doesn't need to be Paskified, throw in a Hunter Killer and Dozer Blade for good measure.

What is this nonsense about out-ranging a hammerhead?

Whoops! My mistake.

The Bastion Breacher shells are formidable, but are still a blast weapon and the same range as a Lascannon. The thing about the Medusa, and same goes for the Manticore, is armour. The Vanquisher can go head to head against other Russes or Land Raiders and, rarely I admit, use it's range to simply outperform it's opponents. Aside from the Tank Destroyer, which utterly lacks the versatility of the MBT's options, the next step up from the Vanquisher in AT firepower is in superheavy territory.

[Bunnahabhain]

The Manticore is fairly tough. AV12, closed top, and doesn't need LOS. AV:14 is better than AV:12, certainly, but AV:Bloody big hill is better still, and effectively ignored by fewer things, I think.

I've tried them time and time again, and have had only two times when their performance has stuck in my head. The rest of the time they've been entirely unmemorable..

1) A BS3 one hitting the same tank hunting marine dreadnaught three times in a row at long range, and rolling a 10 or 11 to penetrate each time.

2) Using a Macharius Vanquisher, house ruled. Between having 2 shots, a decent BS, the turret being a little higher so ignoring more cover, and not being shut down by shaken/stunned, the thing actually worked as the background suggests.

[Awilla the Hun]

The best mine ever achieved was killing a Defiler in one shot, under the command of Captain Ashingby Liddell-Hart. A glorious day for the ESR.

[Col. von Dryden]

Oh how I miss they days when it had *gasp* AP and AT rounds.... If only it were AP1 now it might be worth it (or better yet, a non-pask BS4 available...) God I miss my armored company.

[tu33y]

destroyer tank hunter with "Slick Loader". twenty points more, infinate range, S10, fires twice if stationary (or pay 160 and don't get the fire twice)

id rather have that than a vanquisher- even a BS 4 one.

[Commotionpotion]

The Vanquisher used to be mighty indeed - battlecannon with standard and AT shells at a 96" range.

Now it's...less than impressive, except when used in an Armoured Battlegroup, as a command or commissar tank with a heavy stubber bolted to it.

It does have some mobility, especially if you've only given it a hull weapon and heavy stubber. Apart from that, it's only other plus is that its a weapon that rolls 2D6 + strength for armour busting, but is not counted as a Melta weapon, hence its utility in breaking open things with Ferromantic Inv/Ceramite Armour etc.

[MyNameDidntFit]

What is this nonsense about out-ranging an hammerhead? If anything it is the other way around when it comes to getting the first shot since it does have a 12" move as well as 72" range.

Also don't forget the medusa with bastion breacher shells is very effective. S10 AP1 and 2d6 penetration. Important part being AP1. Sure, it is a small blast and has a harder time of hitting, but it also adds a bit of versatility.

So, only reason for me to take the vanquisher is if I want a sturdy AT vehicle, but at the cost of 1½ medusa (2 if you take Pask) I'm not so certain about taking it in a standard list. But then of course, I regularly play with Pask in a Punisher because it's so much fun throwing 29 S5 and 3 S4 shots at BS4 on a unit when stationary ^^

If you mean my post, I said 'out-shoot' referring the 4's to glance from the Hammerhead on 1d6 and the 5 to glance from the Vanq. on 2d6.

As for Medusas, I find their defining detriment is the fact that they can't shoot until they've been in range of a lascannon, autocannon or equivalent (48") AT/transport busting weapon for 12". Being that they're AV12 and can't move and shoot, it's very hard to do anything meaningful with them against a reasonably intelligent enemy. Other than the psych-warfare of making your enemy focus fire on your really cheap tanks rather than your expensive other stuff.

[ColShaw]

Why would you ever use a Vanquisher? Well, suppose you've got a really bad itch on your back... the normal-length Battlecannon just isn't long enough for those hard-to-reach spots.

Vanquisher: backscratcher (and headscratcher) of the Imperial Guard.

[ehlijen]

As for Medusas, I find their defining detriment is the fact that they can't shoot until they've been in range of a lascannon, autocannon or equivalent (48") AT/transport busting weapon for 12". Being that they're AV12 and can't move and shoot, it's very hard to do anything meaningful with them against a reasonably intelligent enemy.

Two things:
-Medusas have access to an alternate weapon profile that matches Lascannon and Autocannon in range.
-Meduses can move and shoot just fine. Are you thinking of the 3rd ed Ordnance rules?

[MyNameDidntFit]

The alternate profile negates the AP1 that is perhaps their biggest bonus over something like a Vanq.

It does seem like I might be thinking of the rules wrong for ordinance--it's been a long long time since I ran any in my Guard. I thought ordinance could not shoot if you moved? Or is it that you can't fire defensive weapons if you fire ordinance when moving? If I am indeed wrong, then my opinion of Medusas just improved greatly.