How to fix cannons

[Sh4d0w]

Another "in-genius" poll by me , obviously there is alot more than can be done to fix them but for the moment we'll focus on the damage to bring monsters back into the game.

-Keep as are d6 wounds
-Change to d3 wounds
-Change to d3+1 wounds

[Lyynark]

There's no need to fix them. Cannons saw an increase in points with the new Empire AB and it will most likely cost more in the new Dwarf AB as well.

[Shadowsinner]

i say keep it at d6 wounds but make monsters more resilient against them. since theyre big and bulky the can shrug off the hit more effectively. so say monsters take half of the result rounded up like a stonehorn and always take at least one wound. and to make a stonehorn more fluffy alter his rule to half rounded up minus on wound.

so monsters take 3 wounds per shot, and stonehorn takes 2 max per shot. this way generals on mounts are more survivable, while things like war machines and chariots can be blown to bits

[Snake1311]

d3+2 wounds?

Half a wound average nerf against monsters, but easier to bust Ogre ranks

[theunwantedbeing]

d3+2 wounds?

Half a wound average nerf against monsters, but easier to bust Ogre ranks

Pfft, no.
This just makes them way better at character sniping which is the opposite to what cannon are supposed to be able to do.

Putting the wound multiplier before saves are taken would possibly be more useful.
So you can more easily shoot down things like the hydra as if you roll a 6 for wounds, it doesn't get a 50/50 chance to live/die but a 50/50 chance per wound so it more likely to at least take some wounds. Less useful for non-regen monsters of course, but anything that will grant them a save becomes more useful to keeping them alive.

[The Low King]

There's no need to fix them. Cannons saw an increase in points with the new Empire AB and it will most likely cost more in the new Dwarf AB as well.

Agree with this.

i say keep it at d6 wounds but make monsters more resilient against them. since theyre big and bulky the can shrug off the hit more effectively. so say monsters take half of the result rounded up like a stonehorn and always take at least one wound. and to make a stonehorn more fluffy alter his rule to half rounded up minus on wound.

so monsters take 3 wounds per shot, and stonehorn takes 2 max per shot. this way generals on mounts are more survivable, while things like war machines and chariots can be blown to bits

Massive nerf, their main purpose is killing monsters.

d3+2 wounds?

Half a wound average nerf against monsters, but easier to bust Ogre ranks

I actually prefer this. Makes cannons never completely fail and roll 1s or 2s for wounds (paticularly against MI) but reduces their ability to roll insanely and one shot 6W monsters.

[brynolf]

Do away with the miserable "a cannonball hits both rider and monster" rule and everything is fine and dandy.

[Count Zero]

what about having the cannon ball have a potential to deviate slightly from it's landing point. So you mark your target point then scatter it d3 or d3-1". then work your trajectory from the cannon to determine exactly the angle. Wouldn't be difficult to do and would still mean you'd have a good chance to hit a monster on a large base, but would make it a harder to snipe characters, whilst not making it so inaccurate that you'll also miss the unit, plus the further away your target is the less accurate you become. The laser like accuracy of cannons is what annoys me right now.

[Snake1311]

Do away with the miserable "a cannonball hits both rider and monster" rule and everything is fine and dandy.

Do away with the retarded "no points if you only kill the mount" rule and I'm down with this.

Also, my first suggestion wasn't meant to be taken seriously. Cannons are fine, they are placed in armies that absolutely need to dispatch/soften monsters in the shooting phase.

[IcedCrow]

There's nothing wrong with cannons. There seems to be something wrong with people learning how to deal with them.

You have look out sir to deal with character sniping.

Monsters getting kablammed in the face happen, and also don't happen depending on how the dice are feeling that day. Like anything in the game, some armies are better at dealing with elements than others. My tomb kings army deals with cannons through a variety of ways:

1) necrosphinx. He flies. He gets shot at one turn. If he survives, he's eating cannon crew. And the longe rhe's back there eating cannon crew, the less the rest of my army is taking cannon balls to the mouth.

2) Casket.

3) Entombed units. Particularly scarab swarms, though scorpions are also fun. They work half the time, the other half they are being shot by the cannons and killed, but this goes back to the rest of my army not getting shot at for a moment while I close the battle lines.

4) CLoak of the dunes tomb prince wishing cannon crew good morning and Settra-bless.

5) Return artillery fire from my catapults.

That's just the army I'm currently using at the moment. I would be in favor of removing both rider and mount taking hits from cannonball as that's pretty lame and unrealistic, but that is what it is. Also note nothing is 100%. If you're looking for the hard 100% counter, sorry.

Learn to deal with them better.

[Sh4d0w]

d3+2 wounds?

Half a wound average nerf against monsters, but easier to bust Ogre ranks

err i think this actually powers up cannonballs even more, since ogres auto die, however maybe half wounds would be a good solution, but how would we take down a GUO???

[BooTMGSG]

Simple solution. add more obstacles. Cannon balls stop at walls destroying the wall.
If you must add a 4+ ward save when firing through 2" of woods, representing the cannon ball hitting.

[Snake1311]

err i think this actually powers up cannonballs even more, since ogres auto die, however maybe half wounds would be a good solution, but how would we take down a GUO???

Half wounds are obviously a terrible solution. Against an abomination, 2 wounds per hit average, *~2/3 hit chance, *5/6 wound chance, *1/2 regen. About half a wound average per cannon per turn. So with the storm banner we get 3 cannon armies not being able to take down abombs which are left out in the open wiht focus fire now?

Cannons are there to kill big targets. If you nerf them hard against big targets, then they are there for no a particular reason.

[danny-d-b]

as said above the issues with cannons isn't that they are to killy, its that they are to easly able to take down ridden monsters and ridden chariots, if you know your coming up against a cannon empire army, it doesn't stop you taking a hydra does it, but it does stop you taking a dragon rider!- however remove the cannon hits both rule and bam ridden monsters might have a chance again

[madival]

why not just say they can't snipe characters? The only broken thing about cannons=fixed at that point. You could shoot the general off his horse with a cannon if he was alone, but thats cause he stuck out like a soar thumb. Not so much when surrounded.

[IcedCrow]

I play in a meta with a lot of cannons. And there are still ridden monsters and dragons. They don't die all the time as is being suggested here. They tend to do some amazing things. It's just that they are not guaranteed to do so... which is what I think some of your (collective) problems are...

[Phazael]

I am a fan of the d3+1 wound idea and have been suggesting it for a while, myself. It would make the cannons more consistant at two shotting monsters, but not let them one shot them. Hero level characters would also be auto punked, and it would leave the standard functionality of cannons otherwise unaffected. The other change I would make is to return to the randomization between rider and beast, instead of hitting both. The two for one deal just makes ridden monsters unplayable in the current environment.

[DruidNei]

what about having the cannon ball have a potential to deviate slightly from it's landing point. So you mark your target point then scatter it d3 or d3-1". then work your trajectory from the cannon to determine exactly the angle. Wouldn't be difficult to do and would still mean you'd have a good chance to hit a monster on a large base, but would make it a harder to snipe characters, whilst not making it so inaccurate that you'll also miss the unit, plus the further away your target is the less accurate you become. The laser like accuracy of cannons is what annoys me right now.

This! Laser guided cannons (and homing stone throwers and organ guns) are what irks me the most. Accurately hitting a solo guy on foot with a cannon or stone thrower is plain silly. Those things were made to kill massed infantry not to snipe.

And of course the "hit rider and mount" rule.

[Malorian]

I'd be happy if it was d6+1 and didn't hit all parts of the model.

Often I feel they don't do enough damage to monsters.

[Enigmatik1]

I play in a meta with a lot of cannons. And there are still ridden monsters and dragons. They don't die all the time as is being suggested here. They tend to do some amazing things. It's just that they are not guaranteed to do so... which is what I think some of your (collective) problems are...

I largely agree with you but I can't help but think the way cannons take out character and mount is a bit excessive. Why isn't a cannon shot randomized like other shooting attacks?