How to fix cannons

[IcedCrow]

Are you advocating that eveyone has a great wall of china set across the middle of the board?

Not hardly.

True Line of Sight. If you have the proper amount of terrain on the table and its not a giant open board, then those cannons shouldn't be able to see the entire table. This means your monsters can use terrain to hide and minimize how many cannons are shooting at them.

Also some walls help. You don't need a great wall of china. A 6" piece of wall between you and a cannon means that they have to land on your monster because if they land short the wall will stop it. Using terrain is vital. This is primarily why my monsters don't die all the time, unlike what I read about online, and why I have never really had a problem with cannons because while powerful, we use the suggested amount of terrain and there are a lot of hidey holes and cannons cannot see me everywhere. And if there are walls, they make excellent cover points because it makes it harder to land on my monster and kill it unless they get a direct hit with the cannon (yes possible, yes it happens, but it's not as likely as landing short and bouncing)

Terrain also helps against blob infantry as steadfast gets negated in rivers, forests...etc...

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Good luck whit that cause no way that i can draw TLOS from the barrel of my cannon trough a unit of 50 halbadiers to some other infantry beyound them. Certenly i can draw line of sight trough a single rank of models but not trough multiple ranks of them. You can't see trough crowds in real life . The idividual might not block you but the mass might
(on the other hand drawin line of sight trough those 6th edition spearman is pretty easy whit the neat ranks)

You are quite right. Although this point has been brought up a couple of times, it has not yet sunk in. I am often unable to shoot the ideal target because units get in the way. Of course it is possible to see through some units but it depends on their size, mass, and some other factors like shields, size thereof and so on. With even 30 Halbs in front of the cannon and 35 Skellies in bus some way away it becomes rather difficult to aim properly.

[scarletsquig]

There's no need to fix them. Cannons saw an increase in points with the new Empire AB and it will most likely cost more in the new Dwarf AB as well.

This.

......

[Lord Inquisitor]

It's hard to draw inferences from this limited data set, given how many variables there are. Was the terrain identical on every field? What were the match ups, and what was the relative skill level of the different players? How many actual wounds did those canons manage to do in the course of those games, etc.

It does, however, match up pretty well with predictions made earlier in this thread. Few ridden monster (about 1 in 25 armies), ridden monster armies did not do well, only monsters in top armies have had some form of save vs cannons.

And what does that tell us? Many players think warmachines are a) good, b) an integral part of their army, and c) taking warmachines is as much a guarantee for a good ranking as everything else. All of that applies to a GW horde or an L4 as well.

The point was that earlier in this thread it was argued that cannons were not that common, one comment that stood out was taking three cannons would be "silly". Any probability calculation involving more than 2 cannons was criticised as unrealistic.

So on the one hand your saying that these tournement results show that monsters are fairly rare, your assertion is that this is down to cannons, which IMHO is pure conjecture.

I've never said it is entirely down to cannons, however, they are certainly a big factor and in my experience, the one factor that really puts the monster back on the shelf. Without their threat, we'd see more monsters. Sure, if they were cheaper or brought a bigger reward that would work but cannons are the simplest issue preventing people taking them.

As an example, I regularly bring a Thundertusk to tournaments. I noted that not a single OK list in that tournament brought a Thundertusk, which I thought a little surprising. The Thundertusk is quite a nice unit. It is not cheap for what it is, and could certainly stand to be at least 50 points cheaper. But it has some decent ranged capabilities, it is acceptable in combat particularly with thunderstomp but critically it has the ASL aura, which is a force multiplier. It's a great unit when it works so why don't people take it? It freaking dies a lot. I can't remember the last game it actually survived. Typically, it dies to ranged attacks or magic. Magic I can deal with but ranged attacks are a problem and when I say ranged attacks, I mean either poisoned skirmishers or war machines. As I said before, last GT I went to, it died by turn 2 every single game. 4 of those were to war machines, 2 of those to first turn shots. And I have a spell that can give it regenerate!

However it's also worth noting that Empire and dwarfs both did really badly and didn't appear at all in your top 20, which indicates that they don't need to be made any weaker. The problem I see is that if you nerf cannons you don't only take away these two armies only way to deal with monsters. You considerably weaken them across the board which is the last thing they need.

That is a completely separate issue. One should NOT base core game design on what will happen to individual armies. 8th edition has several cases where this has happened. ASF giving re-rolls and regen or ward rules were there to balance pre-existing armies and we're stuck with these rules for a long time now.

As it happens, I play Empire and I've no desire to see them nerfed. The cannon issue hasn't been helped by handgunners inexplicably going up in cost and mortars getting hit with the nerf stick. Cannons need to be good enough. Honestly, they could even be nastier against monsters - 2D6 wounds might be too much but 2D6-pick-the-highest might be okay. But it should be hard to hit a fast-moving target even a big one and downright impossible to hit a man-sized target moving behind its lines.

And i have to admid cannons are harsh to mounted monsters. But then again mounted monsters are realy powerfull playing pieces . I dont know about you but i am sure glad ppl have something to consider before takeing them cause i sure would not like to face a dragon rider ( or other monster) each and every game.

Are they that good? Seems to me that most monsters are mediocre at best and then cannons make them nonviable.

Wouldn't the third shot be 16.5% and not 21%

Yeah, about that. The formula would be 1-(17/18)^n where n is the number of turns you want your cannon to survive.

[Gradek]

It does, however, match up pretty well with predictions made earlier in this thread. Few ridden monster (about 1 in 25 armies), ridden monster armies did not do well, only monsters in top armies have had some form of save vs cannons.

But again, monsters were fairly common and there were lots of stegs/sphinxes (ie not saves). It also happens that many monsters have some form of save and many of the ones that do not wouldn't be all that good even if they got one. In 8th, the opportunity cost of taking many monsters is just too high when compared to spending those points on more troops (ie I would rather have 6 chaos knights than a shoggoth, even if you gave the shoggoth a ward).

Secondly, there were tons of mournfangs. Mournfangs are also susceptible to cannon fire and will almost always have to make a panic test if even one goes down to shooting, thus making them a somewhat risky proposition.

Finally, once again, it is much more likely that steadfast and points from lord allotment are restricting the use of ridden monsters than anything else (along with the crappy monsters available for riding in some armies (ie manticores/griffons/etc).

[IcedCrow]

Monsters make good support units. I think people are still wrapped up in monsters being able to dominate and kill entire units by themselves and now that they cannot, they don't take them anymore.

As a support unit backing up a mainline unit OR as a warmachine / light troop hunter, they excel. That's what I use them for anyway, when I use them.

[Asensur]

About TLOS:

1. Take a laser pointer with you (they use to be cheap).

2. No LOS issues for you and your opponent.

[IcedCrow]

Pet store. You can get one of those laser pointers that cats love for $5.

[Eladimir]

As said on the first page I think the wound multiplier should go off before the saves so its less of an all or nothing thing.

[Axeman1n]

After reading this whole thread it seems like the only problem with cannons is their ability to snipe exactly where they need to, not matter the range. I say take a page out of 40k rules and have it scatter 1d6, minus the firers BS. That's in addition to the normal rolls for the Artillery dice. I think most people would agree that this subtle shift in it's trajectory would make them pretty balanced.
I just started collected WFB afte collecting 7 40k armies, and I believe that the main attraction of the game was from the Heroic Mounted Generals at the head of their army. I made the mistake of choosing an army without first learning the rules, so my OK army is lead by a Slaughtermaster, but I have a mounted Hunter that I am eagerly painting. After reading this whole thread, I want to see how bad it is in my area.
As far as the top 20 from that tournament not including any Empire or Dwarves, I would say that is most likely due to the competive players shelving their Empire and Dwarf armies in favor of armies that did not recieve the worst of the restrictions.

[Asensur]

As far as the top 20 from that tournament not including any Empire or Dwarves, I would say that is most likely due to the competive players shelving their Empire and Dwarf armies in favor of armies that did not recieve the worst of the restrictions.

General ETC restrictions

An army may have up to 4 war machines and shooting template weapons. Warmachines that use a template count as a single choice in this regard. All template weapons (from magic items, abilities, etc.) count, except for spells. Bolt thr. count as ½ a war machine(round up).
Max. 45 models with missile weapons with a range of 20”+ (not incl. war machines, characters and chariots).

Dwarf restrictions

Dwarfs: Each spellbreaker/spelleater rune counts as +1 DD. Grudge Throwers are a 0-2 choice; May generate Max. +4 dispel dice instead of +2; gyrocopter doesn't count for max 4 war machine/template.

Empire restrictions

The Empire: Steam tank 0-1. Cannons 0-3, steam stank count as a cannon.

Ogre restrictions

Ogre Kingdoms: Hellheart counts as 2dd & 1pd, Greedyfist on death mage counts as 2dd, Rune Maw Banner counts as 1dd. Each leadbelcher/ sniper maneater with pistol(s) counts as 3 models towards to shooting cap. Max 3 combined units of Mournfang Cav & Ironblaster. 0-1 Ironblaster.

The ETC tries to take out overpowered armies, when the only thing that it does is changing tier lists instead of removing it.

Also, their scenario rules screw terrain and the need to adapt to different situations.

IV. Scenarios

Pitched battle scenario

V. Simple Line of Sight
All units and terrain pieces are divided into the following three categories.
- Blocking: Hills, Buildings and impassable terrain.
These block Line of Sight, even to other blocking terrain (You can't see through it).
- Non-Blocking: Rivers, marches and swarms.
Does not block Line of Sight (You can see through them/it).
- Interfering: All other terrain and units.
Does not block Line of Sight (You can see through them/it).

[DragonArmy]

I would add that I think cannons are considered to be a bigger threat then they actually are.

Excluding ogres, cannons are needed by the appropriate armies otherwise these monsters would wreck. Chaose Dwarves also may be excluded.

A think a different change needs considering--certain costed monsters need more protection or wound reduction because losing your awesome monster and rider turn 1 that is 25% of your army is unfun. Not a cannon problem, certain monster problem.

And i would not nerf cannons, I would make the more consistant.

Against DE hydras for example, a cannon first must hit, then must wound on a 5/6, pass a regen save of a 50% and then d6 wounds, a 1/3 chance of killing, but easily maimed.

Someone told me a single cannon would counter my hydra, and I was like, that' like a 1/9 chance it will actually die turn one.

Other problem is most people don't play with enough terrain. That LOS for cannons is actually tough.


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[IcedCrow]

Score another one for "not enough terrain"

[Spiney Norman]

That is a completely separate issue. One should NOT base core game design on what will happen to individual armies. 8th edition has several cases where this has happened. ASF giving re-rolls and regen or ward rules were there to balance pre-existing armies and we're stuck with these rules for a long time now.

As it happens, I play Empire and I've no desire to see them nerfed. The cannon issue hasn't been helped by handgunners inexplicably going up in cost and mortars getting hit with the nerf stick. Cannons need to be good enough. Honestly, they could even be nastier against monsters - 2D6 wounds might be too much but 2D6-pick-the-highest might be okay. But it should be hard to hit a fast-moving target even a big one and downright impossible to hit a man-sized target moving behind its lines.

Yeah, about that. The formula would be 1-(17/18)^n where n is the number of turns you want your cannon to survive.

I'm a little confused by all this to be honest, on the one hand you seem to be arguing that cannons should be nerfed because they're too good in game, and on the other hand you seem to be simultaneously arguing that they don't function as the fluff and physics says they should.

IMHO these are two separate issues, if you decide that cannons should not be viable anti-monster weapons because it's not realistic that they are you will have to change something somewhere else in the game to make it a viable anti-monster weapon. The only other thing that comes close (aside from massed poison shooting) is the stone thrower, which misses 66% of the time unless you're on an arachnarok base.

I don't think you can make a statement that cannons are too powerful from a game perspective, the are only three armies that can use them, and on the basis that I think giving a cannon to ogres was a really dumb idea I really don't see the problem with Empire and dwarfs having them. Both armies have a crucial weakness that the cannons make up for, in the dwarfs case lack of speed, and in the Empiers case a general mediocrity at just about everything except shooting their cannon.

[The bearded one]

Pet store. You can get one of those laser pointers that cats love for $5.

I guess I should get a cat at the same time to entertain with the laser pointer. For some reason opponents are never game for chasing the red dot..

[Souppilgrim]

I don't really buy the idea that "big stuff" isn't a threat. I'm counting monsters, ridden monsters, and greater daemons. As an empire player (and retired dwarf player), I sure as hell don't take cannons to kill rank and file troops.... and the threat is big enough that I never make a list without at least 1 cannon. (never take three though, end up with nothing to shoot at most of the time).

[Židrek]

I guess I should get a cat at the same time to entertain with the laser pointer. For some reason opponents are never game for chasing the red dot..

Its best to wait with the laser pointer and the cat until your enemy has the upper hand and then check LOS with it. How many points should the cat be?

[The bearded one]

Its best to wait with the laser pointer and the cat until your enemy has the upper hand and then check LOS with it. How many points should the cat be?

Thunderstomp, wheee!

[LotlBotl]

I'm a little confused by all this to be honest, on the one hand you seem to be arguing that cannons should be nerfed because they're too good in game, and on the other hand you seem to be simultaneously arguing that they don't function as the fluff and physics says they should.

I don't think he's saying that. What he is pointing out is that the Imperial Field Piece From Nuln(TM) is the only really viable gunpowder unit that Empire can field - and it shouldn't be the only reliable option for taking out the big cheese on a table. Make, I don't know, handgunners worth taking for example, maybe rebalance the cannon in light of that.

I've considered GW should release one big general errata for all armies once a year, but I'm kinda afraid of what kind of bad ideas could come of that.

Thunderstomp, wheee!

Mathhammer determines that Cat has 100% chance to reroll all attacks until unit has been killed.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

No offense, but contrary to my first impression, the level of sheer wishlisting in this thread far outweighs the whining. There is no intention to balance handgunners and cannon, to make the former useful in any way or form or to change the latter in the way it works, not for years to come. Houserule away and be done with it.