How to fix cannons

[Bunnahabhain]

Am I the only one who has a problem with the fact that cannons -always- land further than where they are aimed, but never ever under any circumstances do they miss left or right? It makes no sense, at all, and against things on long bases it's pretty ridiculous.

Yes you are....
They don't always land further off than aimed, they always land somewhere along a line you've aimed along, which in game is determined by your guess+dice roll.

In the real world, yes, they could also scatter right or left of aim line, but generally far less significantly than variation in length, so not showing this scatter in game is reasonable, to me at least.

[Von Wibble]

Well, the monsters we should be interested in looking at a cannons performance aganist are the ones from 8th edition. You just can't use the hydra and HPA as overpowered relics from 7th.

And we see that Sphinxes, arachnaroks and thundertusks all die to them very easily.

I also have to agree with LI, empire and dwarfs really aren't bad at killing monsters.

Empire have

Witch hunters as cheap character deterrents, especially if said character is a wizard or undead (eg strigoi on terrorgeist)
Shadow magic
Cheap tarpits in the form of Reiksguard knights - most monsters can't break that 1+ save easily and get no thunderstomp.
Flagellants - lots of attacks at S5 and often at higher I than the monster (especially if you use magic to help).
Stubborn detachments for greatswords

Dwarfs have

Slayers
Loads of great weapon wielding troops
Virtually unbreakable army
Bolt Throwers
Tarpit characters

What is the probabilty of a cannon hittnig its target btw?

Assuming you target a monster with a base 4" deep (ie most of them) you put your point 6" in front of it. Then you have a 3/6 chance to hit without bounce, a 1/6 x 5/6 chance to go 4" then hit it with the bounce, and a 1/6 x 4/6 chance to go 2" and hit with the bounce.
That makes a 75% chance at distances of up to 66". It also makes for a 62.5% chance of getting d6 wounds on a monster per turn.

Given that you generally get 2 shots (and possibly 3) per cannon and armies with access tend to have 2, that makes it very likely that they kill 1 sphinx equivalent per game. And cost less. And require enemies to divert something else to take them out.

Based on that the cannon is worth about 150 points, or should have a chance to scatter before rolling bounce distance, based on BS.

[Von Wibble]

Yes you are....
They don't always land further off than aimed, they always land somewhere along a line you've aimed along, which in game is determined by your guess+dice roll.

In the real world, yes, they could also scatter right or left of aim line, but generally far less significantly than variation in length, so not showing this scatter in game is reasonable, to me at least.

Not to me. Even 1 degree out given the distance involved would result in completely missing a target that is only a few feet wide.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Well, the monsters we should be interested in looking at a cannons performance aganist are the ones from 8th edition. You just can't use the hydra and HPA as overpowered relics from 7th.

And we see that Sphinxes, arachnaroks and thundertusks all die to them very easily.

Of course I can use the HPA and the Hydra, although I chose the former. I can also chose the STank, old or new. I can also chose my Captasus, Lumi or Hurri.

All of this is somewhat beside the point, Von Wibble, because the main bone of contention are double hits on ridden monsters. Nobody really complained about Hydras and HPA's being at the bottom of the food chain.

[TheOneHawk]

Double hits on ridden monsters is ludicrous, obviously. In addition to this, cannons should be less accurate. You're more likely to hit with a cannon than virtually any other ranged unit, especially now that guess distances is gone.

[Hive Mind 33]

What Hydra?!?

The one you never mentioned so they can prove their point. Hasn't this thread gone on long enough? I mean its getting silly now, I mean people are suggesting that a cannon should be able to misfire, overshoot, and scatter just to make sure they don't hit everything.

[TheOneHawk]

A cannon should be able to misfire, overshoot and scatter. Believe it or not, stone throwers (which can misfire, overshoot and scatter) STILL HIT THINGS!

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Quick, someone nerf them!!!

[TheOneHawk]

Seriously, though. Cannons are for killing monsters, and should be effective at this. They are effective at this. Slightly too effective in my opinion, but where the real problem lies is ridden monsters. The rule they they hit both is awful, and needs to go away.

[The Low King]

27 pages and weve just reached that idea....

[The bearded one]

Quick, someone nerf them!!!

No worries, they got to the mortar already.

[Montegue]

Well, the monsters we should be interested in looking at a cannons performance aganist are the ones from 8th edition. You just can't use the hydra and HPA as overpowered relics from 7th.

Sorry, but I feel that particular position is weak tea. The monsters like the HPA and the Hyrdra may be "7th ed relics", but they appear quite frequently in competition, and will continue to appear throughout this edition and likely into the next. We have only a smattering of rumors for a DE release. We have no idea if the hydra will be nerfed or not, though it will likely see a point increase. As for skaven? HPAs will be a staple of 8th edition, and they are unlikely to change.

You can't just leave them out of a discussion of relative cannon power because even *if* cannons see a nerf in 9th ed, there's no guarantee that those monsters will have been replaced by new army books yet.

HPAs and Hyrdas are perfectly relevant to this topic, and should not be dismissed simply because they come from old books. Dwarf Cannons come from a 6th ed book. Shall we leave their increased accuracy and stubborn crews out of the discussion as well?

[Lord Dan]

I think the only reasonable solution is to give all monsters howdah-mounted anti-cannon weapons. Ironically, these will probably need to be cannons. Given that this is likely going to make monsters overpowered, we should mount anti-howah cannon weapons on top of cannons to balance them out, which is also probably best left to cannons.

Therefore:
Cannons on our monsters + cannons on our cannons = Balance

We can lock the thread now. You're welcome.

[Torga_DW]

I think the only reasonable solution is to give all monsters howdah-mounted anti-cannon weapons. Ironically, these will probably need to be cannons. Given that this is likely going to make monsters overpowered, we should mount anti-howah cannon weapons on top of cannons to balance them out, which is also probably best left to cannons.

Therefore:
Cannons on our monsters + cannons on our cannons = Balance

We can lock the thread now. You're welcome.

I don't know, that might lead to people moving away from core infantry..... we should give them cannons too

[Montegue]

I don't know, that might lead to people moving away from core infantry..... we should give them cannons too

You mean leadbelchers?

[Kurnous the Hunter]

I also hate that I can't have a character outside a unit because as soon as it is....BLAM! Dead.

Also hate having a quality unit led by an expensive character. 2-3 cannons shot at unit, right on character. If look out sir is passed...still rips the guts out of unit. If failed, Good bye 200+ points, and my magic phase (if Mage lord) and still rips the guts out of unit.

[AmaroK]

I didn´t go through the whole thread (27 pages is a bit too long for my short sunday free time :P), but as an usual rival of empire and ogres, I must say cannons are way too effective killing monsters. This weekend I played a TK sphynx army vs these two armies and really, its too hard to start with -200 to -500 points in turn one (I started 2nd, my usual luck) not because any tactical skill, but just because with such big bases, the monsters are going to hit with the bounces of the cannon in about the 70% of the times (if no missfire). Im even starting to think to deploy the sphynxes facing left or right to show a lower footprint so the cannon maybe someday can overshoot them.... :P

So, for me the main problem is the system was created for stimation mechanics with smaller bases (even bloodthirstiers and the like didn´t have a bigger base than just 2 cav bases). Now you know that with just saying "I place the cannon ball 7-8 inches away from your unit", maths give you great odds to hit. If the base is chariot one or bigger (thundertusk, arachnarok etc) just place it 4 inches away and only missfire and 2 inches will make you not hit. Im sure space marines want to get such cannons for their tanks, really...

About the ridden monsters, a change in the main mechanics to hit to solve the above problem, plus randomize as in 6th and 7th edition, would make the deal, I guess.

Edit: I forgot to mention how ridiculous it is that a cannon ball can hit into or through a forest with no penalty at all. No cover saves, no blocking of line sight etc, are the result of a badly thought shooting phase, just copy-pasting some aspects of 40k ruleset, but not taking into account fantasy particularities. A change on this phase has to be done in 9th edition so it can be enjoyable.

[The Low King]

I had two (130 point) cannons and a (170 point) grudge thrower yesterday against a Daemon army (SOM).....3 great chaos spawn, a bloodthirster, various heralds running around on their own and a unit of chaos spawn.....guess how much they killed?

I also hate that I can't have a character outside a unit because as soon as it is....BLAM! Dead.

Also hate having a quality unit led by an expensive character. 2-3 cannons shot at unit, right on character. If look out sir is passed...still rips the guts out of unit. If failed, Good bye 200+ points, and my magic phase (if Mage lord) and still rips the guts out of unit.

There are many more effective choices than cannons for killing lone character outside of units...simplest solution is charge them with a flier of some sorts or fill them with arrows.

For characters in units....kills what? 5 infantry models maximum?

Hitting a character in a unit is really hard, its a much smaller chance to hit than a monster and you have a LOS and (i hope) a ward save...

[Montegue]

Why would anyone choose a canon over a stone thrower? Especially a dwarf? Given a change that not only forced a scatter roll but *also* required a BS roll to hit, etc, why would I ever want anything that wasn't a Grudge Thrower? That one, when properly runed, hits at S10 with a D6 wounds under the template and is significantly more effective against large blocks of melee troops.

Canons don't gut hordes. We can kill *maybe* 5 models or so, if we get a really nice bounce, and none of the wounds come up a 1. That's nothing for a big block of infantry.

[Lord Dan]

You mean leadbelchers?

Are leadbelchers core now?