Sadly, no.Originally Posted by Lord Dan
Keep as same d6 wounds
Change to d3 wounds
Change to d3+1 wounds
Sadly, no.
... and then I won.
*chuckle* no, but they *do* all have cannons...
CannonHammer: the game of fantasy cannon battles
Just because the horse is dead is no reason to stop flogging it.
they see me trollin, they hatin
DESTINY IS CALLING!!! but beer is on the other line.....
The main problem with cannons are the new line of sight rules , they just about give the cannon carte blanche to fairly accurately spike whatever it wants on the table. Trying to somehow "hide" a model from the "bounce" or view of the cannonball will usually result in a rules lawyering or "look I can see afraction of the corner of its foot" arguments which just detract from the game. Personally I would bring bach the old blocking line of sight rules (can't see through/past terrain/units) and a lot of the problems would be fixed.
Why not have the cannon require a a successful roll against their Ballistic skill to do D6 wounds , doing D3 otherwise. It just means they get to earn that big hit a little more.
War does not determine who is right, it determines who is left.
Fix something that isn't broken to make something that is broken better?
Free your hobby! Be creative and stop slavishly following the damn Book.
RIP Brimstone.
I used to read the GW Other Forum, but I am much happier now.
Not quite sure what you mean, the brokeness of cannons is somewhat debatable judging by the length of the thread. I'm not sure what the broken thing being made better is either. If you're referring to monsters I'm not sure how broken most of them are seing as you only see certain "problem" ones (hydras, abombs) , steadfast and disruption rules already fixed monsters being broken more than anything else , cannons just buried them is all.
Besides you could still get to do D6 wounds , you just have to score a direct hit with your Ballistic skill to get it is all, and even if you miss you get D3 wounds which would still hurt. Its the difference between a glancing blow and just grazing a moving target.
Last edited by Maoriboy007; 13-05-2012 at 22:41.
War does not determine who is right, it determines who is left.
Should wizards have to roll against their wizard level to have their spells do full damage? Because damn, I'd love for my war machines to not autodie with no save against Pit...
Actually thats more of a separate issue, spells like pit and dwellers probably need fixing just as much as cannons do. Not all war machines are a problem , but it seems cannons could be. Not all spells are a problem but pit and dwellers probably are, so yes certainly fix those spells (actually most people think they should do D3 wounds and allow MR/ward saves) so I don't have a real conflict there.
War does not determine who is right, it determines who is left.
I think he is referring to monsters that are broken. Read: monsters that "do not work" vs monsters that are "too good".
Keep in mind that Warhammer is HEROIC 28mm, that is 30mm.
But then again, Kylie Minogue and Shakira are said to be the same scale as NBA players
After the Hydra and the Hellpit, though, what broken monsters remain?
Lots of other monsters are really bad (griffon for example). Broken does not mean overpowered.
Keep in mind that Warhammer is HEROIC 28mm, that is 30mm.
But then again, Kylie Minogue and Shakira are said to be the same scale as NBA players
K'Daai Destroyer is the only 8th Ed "broken" monster. Although the more I play Chaos Dwarfs the less I think they're balanced at all.
... and then I won.
The Hydra is ridiculous for it's cost. The HPA is also amazing for it's cost. Most of the Chaos Dwarf monsters are pretty crazy.
well this thread is interesting made me actually log in ! grats guys.
i would suggest something in between, that is making sense and would solve manny issue.
make the cannon do D6 wounds on the point of the first impact. ( obvioulsy it havent been slowed down by the bounce yet )
after the first impact , all the bounce movement is made at D3 wounds.
simple, remove some of the (laser guided) issue ... cannonball will most likely kill the first ogre it smash but will stop at the second more often than not.
all in all i feel it is a potent solution.
Return cannons to guess range without measuring. Then continue as normal.
would require the entire game to lose premeasuring, which would make, amongst other things, charging unpredictable and random into the absurd due to having an unknown distance between units along with an unknown chargedistance roll.
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Guess ranging serves no purpose. Some people like me can guess a range across the the room and still come within an inch every time. Guess ranging to me is the same as premeasuring because I'm hitting the same target.
NOTE: my use of the word "powergamer" is not meant as a derrogatory or inflammatory word used in a negative context. It is used to describe a type of player that uses power builds
Cannons are not broken, just follow the logic.
Four changes have affected cannons this edition: points, guess range, TLOS and the joint monster/rider rule.
Points: We had that coming even without TLOS, so no argument there
Range: an average cannon user can be accurate enough to make range guessing superfluous so all we are doing is re,oving about 6mths-1year of gaming time from the equation.Nothing there.
Monster/Rider: Here I think they have made a mistake. Shooting should not affect both simultaneously. I think this is one of those streamlining actions that wasn't needed.
TLOS: The real killer. For those of you who stick rigidly to the rules, this is a cross you have to bear. TLOS is what's killing monsters etc, not cannons who have in essence remained unchanged in terms of rules. For those who can accept a little latitude in their application of the rules there is a simple solution; just declare some terrain TLOS blockers, regardless of whether they do or not.
There is another aspect which is that since the cannon was first in the Empire army list, there is a growing number of gamers who play in a distinct way, maximising every advantage possible, rather than follow the more thematic roots of the original game design. I think it is this aspect that made Inquisitor less of a hit becuase it did not have the usual brakes that GW put on their force design.
So as we can see, cannons are not broken but the rules that affect them (and other things) are. The answer is not to penalise cannons in doing the job they were designed to do, but address the reasons why cannons have appeared to have become more effective.
Free your hobby! Be creative and stop slavishly following the damn Book.
RIP Brimstone.
I used to read the GW Other Forum, but I am much happier now.
Here is the kicker, both from a fluff perspective and a balance perspective. The thing is, the guess range really did affect new players and I know plenty of players who simply couldn't accurately guess ranges even after years of practice (lack of depth perception or whatever). But that's not the point. From a game design perspective, the skill of the cannon crew was represented by the skill of the player. Rather than use the model's ballistic skill, we used the "ballistic skill" of the player. Now, the fact that many tournament players got good enough to land a cannonball within a few inches of their desired spot is neither here nor there, it just means they were able to acquire a good ballistic skill. Not a great system of representing ballistic skill but at least it was there and every so often even an experienced player would make a mistake. The change to simply picking an ideal initial spot not only made cannons excessively accurate but now there is no ballistic skill mechanic at all.
When the burden of "ballistic skill" was removed from the player, it needed to be replaced with some form of mechanic that used the model's ballistic skill like every other direct-fire shooting attack.
Everything else is symptomatic of that. Bolt throwers haven't become suddenly more attractive in the same way as cannons, why not? You can premeasure, they surely get the same bonuses as cannons from TLOS? The answer is that of course here that they are affected by terrain. A monster or unit can hide behind terrain or intervening troops. A bolt thrower can fire through the eye of a needle like a cannon but it's probably going to be hitting on 6s if it does.
TLOS wouldn't be an issue with cannons if they actually had to roll to hit. Monsters wouldn't be so vulnerable because even if you couldn't keep them out of sight, you could at least use cover. The ballistic skill of the crew would actually matter (Dwarf cannons would be more feared than Ironblasters).
... and then I won.
Then LI you would apply that to all war machines. They didn't work on guesswork but on the appliance of mathematics and years of experience.
Free your hobby! Be creative and stop slavishly following the damn Book.
RIP Brimstone.
I used to read the GW Other Forum, but I am much happier now.
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