How to fix cannons

[The Low King]

I largely agree with you but I can't help but think the way cannons take out character and mount is a bit excessive. Why isn't a cannon shot randomized like other shooting attacks?

Because its a template and templates hit both parts of a model. A very general rule that has a very big effect here.

[Cella_Dweller]

Leave war machines alone please =). Especially when we have multiple spells that are easily cast and wipe out half a unit including the character!!!

[IrishDelinquent]

Add another log to the No Rider and Mount fire. To me, this is the big killer with cannons and other templates these days. While 3 wounds isn't that threatening to most ridden monsters, it inst-gibs most riders. To me this, combined with sniper-cannon syndrome, is the big problem with these war machines. Make it either harder to hit so accurately, or make it so firing a cannon at a stegadon isn't reminiscent of a game of Pinball.

[decker_cky]

Price in empire book fixed most everything. Only other things needed is to block cannonballs on a 4+ (and other non-BS shots) when they cross a forest, and to use the 6/7th edition hitting the rider or a mount rule.

[Snake1311]

Add another log to the No Rider and Mount fire. To me, this is the big killer with cannons and other templates these days. While 3 wounds isn't that threatening to most ridden monsters, it inst-gibs most riders. To me this, combined with sniper-cannon syndrome, is the big problem with these war machines. Make it either harder to hit so accurately, or make it so firing a cannon at a stegadon isn't reminiscent of a game of Pinball.

Again, only if the monster then gives away its points.
I know I said it on the last page, but I will keep reitaretaing it until people start including it in their initial suggestion.

[The Low King]

Price in empire book fixed most everything. Only other things needed is to block cannonballs on a 4+ (and other non-BS shots) when they cross a forest, and to use the 6/7th edition hitting the rider or a mount rule.

So it didnt really fix anything? those are significant nerfs

[Phazael]

Again, only if the monster then gives away its points.
I know I said it on the last page, but I will keep reitaretaing it until people start including it in their initial suggestion.

Except that you have every opportunity to follow up the first shot with another to grease the rider and we both know that cannons never travel solo. Still, thats not a terrible suggestion, assuming Deckers ideas were implemented to make ridden models viable. It sure opens up a large can of worms, though.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Cannon never kill monsters, chariots or characters, so the fix to this problem is to make them better able aim and hit. Some large target modifier that lets you modify the bounce roll perhaps, or a re-roll to wound?

[passwordman]

On the subject of ridden monsters why not make it so you roll on a 2d6 table where 2-8 hits the monster, 9-11 hit the rider and 12 hits both. This would show that the monster is more likely to be hit as it is larger and also allows for the very rare chance of hitting both monster and rider.

Passwordman

[DivineVisitor]

I'd go for:

Randomise between character and rider
So that its less devastating against ridden monsters.

and

Scatter D3 inches from intended position.
So that its less likely to snipe characters in units but still capable of not missing the target unit altogether.

[Enigmatik1]

On the subject of ridden monsters why not make it so you roll on a 2d6 table where 2-8 hits the monster, 9-11 hit the rider and 12 hits both. This would show that the monster is more likely to be hit as it is larger and also allows for the very rare chance of hitting both monster and rider.

Passwordman

Definitely not a bad compromise imo. I just find it exceedingly annoying that no logical account for the size of the cannonball, rider and monster are taken into account when resolving this particular kind of attack. I get this is a fantasy game and all but even my imagination has it's limits. I can just see these sniper-like war machine crews consistently lining up the perfect shot to pop my Tomb King and his Warsphinx mount in one shot and I can't help but laugh.

Then again, part of my issue with the way cannons work is directly tied to Tomb Kings on Warsphinxes, so naturally I'm a bit biased as in I'd like them to be viable. I can't help but think it's not so much that warmachines/cannons are at fault but instead that the rules for characters riding monsters/chariots are just God awful in this particular case.

[The Low King]

How about, rather than introducing new tables and stuff:

The cannonball hits the Monster first, if the monster is killed it continues traveling and hits the rider (like the MI rule)

[Phazael]

Thats actually a very good idea.

On topic, Cannons are seriously too good at killing monsters at the moment, mostly as a knee jerk to early 7th. Its a major reason why you almost never see a monster without a ward save or regen in tournament lists.

[hamsterwheel]

Personally the damage of the cannon is fine as it's intended on being a monster killer, however, I agree with some of the others about the discrepancy between the cannon and stone thrower when it comes to accuracy.

How about making the BS of the firer count for something rather than a laser guided missile. Pick a point like you normally would, roll to hit using standard modifiers, if it hits, proceed with the standard firing rules for the cannon. If it misses, roll a scatter die and D6, this is the new point and proceed with the standard cannon firing rules. The angle of the shot is determined by the point and position of the cannon just like a normal cannon shot.

[Malorian]

How about, rather than introducing new tables and stuff:

The cannonball hits the Monster first, if the monster is killed it continues traveling and hits the rider (like the MI rule)

The odds that the cannon was aimed perfectly to rip through the neck of the dragon and then hit the rider are pretty remote.

On the note, I like the previous idea of the location scattering a small amount (D3).

[The Low King]

The odds that the cannon was aimed perfectly to rip through the neck of the dragon and then hit the rider are pretty remote.

The rule also simulates additional things, such as the fact that the Dragon you are sitting on 100m above the ground just stopped flapping its wings....

[jtrowell]

The odds that the cannon was aimed perfectly to rip through the neck of the dragon and then hit the rider are pretty remote.

Just think of the "hit" on the rider as the aftershock of his mount being shot down and him falling down, wih maybe the hude body of the beast crushing him.

On the note, I like the previous idea of the location scattering a small amount (D3).

While I play Empire, Skaven, and Ogres, 3 of the 4 armies with canons, I don't play with canons for the reasons already exposed: too easy to try to snipe a character or other small model, even in an unit (sure you get the 2+ LoS roll, but fail it once and your character is probably dead), and firing at a monster (or chartiot) with a character double the canon already great power as you get to hit 2 high points targets at once.

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For the rider/mount problem, I have been thinking of 2 possible solutions that seems to be in the spirit of the rules:

1- always hit first the mount, if you don't kill hit the ball stop (same solution someone else already proposed). I like the fact that this solution follow the rules for the line being stopped by a monster of Monstrous unit

*or*

2- like for the stone throwers where only one of the two get hit by the high strength multi-wound hit, make the canon hit with full strength (S10 and multi-wound 1D6) one of the two (randomised as usual), and the other take only a reduced hit (S10 with no multi-wound is probably the simplest, but S5 with multi-wound 1d3 is another possible solution)

While if find solution 1 slightly more elegant, it is still almost as deadly for characters mounted on chariots or medium monsters. As those are already often underpowered, I think that solution 2 might be more fair for them.

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Now for the "sniper" problem, one solution that I have been thinking would be a small scatter like what you suggest, but that would *replace* the initial scatter.

Current official rules:
- select a point as your target, roll artillery die to advance the target (with possible misfire), and then resolve the rebound with another artillery die (no misfire, but possible that the ball does not rebound)

My possible houserule:
- select a point as your target, scatter d6" in any direction, and rebound from there as usual, except that a misfire is now possible on the rebound (as you cannot misfire with the d6)

Note that in this system you can scatter in any direction like a stone thrower (and a "hit" won't scatter), but against large bases (especially the new one used for the Arachnarock, Thundertusk, Terrorgeist, etc ...), if you target just a few inches in front of the model, you should still hit most of the time. It will also be very easy to hit a horde or even a normal ranked unit (knights ?), so you still have uses for your canon after all the monsters and opponent artillery are dead, but cannot easily hope for hitting over the character (well, it will still be possible with a hit or lucky scatter, but not automatic like now)

The main point I'm still not sure is about the scatter distance: d6 might sometimes seems too much, but dont forget that a hit won't scatter, and scattering only 1 or 2" should still leave you just in front of the target, so I'm not too tempted to use only 1d3 for the scatter. Another solution is to scatter artillery/2 (restoring the misfire on the initial roll), but I like the fact that this version allow the player to roll all dice at the same time (d6+artillery+scatter)

One possible expension on this system could be to change the scatter slightly at short/long range, or maybe to use the current system at short range and this house rule at long range ?

[Mr Ogre]

Just 3 Armies have access to Cannon (unless I'm seriously missing something).

They're going up in points, and tend to occupy that hotly contest Special percentage, and have a fair chance of going wrong and giving up VPs to your opponent. They are the natural prey of a good variety of units, and despite interwebs anecdotal wisdom, need to work to make their points back. Unfavourable overshoot, not bouncing (at all or far enough) and pretty much useless against rank and file infantry.

Yeah. Really, REALLY not seeing the problem here? And 8th Edition hasn't just put their points up, but curbed their worse excesses. No more 'whoops I overshot and yet miraculously managed to scudge your expensive wizard you'd cleverly hidden'. If it doesn't kill something Monstrous, it stops dead, and hits nothing else....

And just as character ridden monsters are the scourge of many units, shouldn't character ridden monsters face a threat equal to their own?

[Malorian]

Just think of the "hit" on the rider as the aftershock of his mount being shot down and him falling down, wih maybe the hude body of the beast crushing him.

There used to be a rule that if a chariot is killed from under the character he would take a hit, but it sure as hell wasn't a str 10 hit that does d6 wounds.

[IcedCrow]

Also removing cannons from having that ability to "snipe characters" (remember they misfire 1/6 of the time, then your artillery dice has to get the cannon ball to land on target and bounce through, then the opponent has to fail his look out sir so the odds are still pretty high its not happening) you'd have things like Teclis being even more powerful...