How to fix cannons

[Lord Inquisitor]

Erata: (cannons are no longer template weapons)

There I just fixed cannons.

Look out sir is over-rated, right?

[The Low King]

As a side note, while I generally agree with your stance, it bothers me when people bring magic into the "realism" argument. Magic is realistic in a fictional universe that supports it. Therefore, raising undead is a realistic part of the warhammer universe. A deathlazer that channels magical energy is realistic. A purely mechanical steed or a piece of high tech artillery would not be, since they rely on known quantities to function, and can't play the magic trump card.

I always find that argument rather strange, whats to say the laws of physics work the same way there as here?

You look at a gyrocopter and go 'No way that would work here, but its fantasy'
Look at a mechanical horse....
Look at Empire architecture....
Look at lots of the warmachines......
Clockwork angels....
Blimps...(at least the ones they have there)
Most of the flying creatures....
Im sure there are many other examples.

Why cant you simply look at cannons and think the same thing?

[N810]

Look out sir is over-rated, right?

well it randomizes between targets this way.
(you wanted to fix ridden monsters)

[yabbadabba]

I always find that argument rather strange, whats to say the laws of physics work the same way there as here?

Da Interwebz sez it so it must be true.

[Balerion]

I always find that argument rather strange, whats to say the laws of physics work the same way there as here?

You look at a gyrocopter and go 'No way that would work here, but its fantasy'
Look at a mechanical horse....
Look at Empire architecture....
Look at lots of the warmachines......
Clockwork angels....
Blimps...(at least the ones they have there)
Most of the flying creatures....
Im sure there are many other examples.

Why cant you simply look at cannons and think the same thing?

The laws of physics are assumed to work the same way because that's how the universe presents them as working. Where no alternative explanation is given we are meant to compare the fiction with our understanding of reality. Where an alternative explanation is given, we can use that (such as in the case of magic).

When we read about an Elf getting hit with a sword we assume that it's fatal because he will bleed out and die... we don't assume that there's a magical sentient forcefield blanketing the world that will react to seal his wound and keep him fighting, and that therefore a wound (in the book-keeping statline sense) in the WFB world is 5x more severe than what would constitute a wound in our world. We don't assume that the scale of the world is completely different from ours, and that if an earth-human were to teleport into the WFB universe he would find himself towering over entire cities of tiny men who he could bully into providing the Most Enjoyable Wargame Ever. We don't assume that gravity is many times weaker in the WFB universe, and that everybody fights like they're on the moon. We don't assume that Ogres can breathe underwater, or that Dwarf eyes cannot perceive the colour green. Etc. ad infinitum.

[The bearded one]

or that Dwarf eyes cannot perceive the colour green.

I imagine that would provide some difficulty when fighting greenskins.
That's no doubt how we lost all those holds!

[Židrek]

I imagine that would provide some difficulty when fighting greenskins.
That's no doubt how we lost all those holds!

Don't buy it as Greenskins are brown from getting messy while making their Dung Sculptures.

[The Low King]

The laws of physics are assumed to work the same way because that's how the universe presents them as working. Where no alternative explanation is given we are meant to compare the fiction with our understanding of reality. Where an alternative explanation is given, we can use that (such as in the case of magic).

When we read about an Elf getting hit with a sword we assume that it's fatal because he will bleed out and die... we don't assume that there's a magical sentient forcefield blanketing the world that will react to seal his wound and keep him fighting, and that therefore a wound (in the book-keeping statline sense) in the WFB world is 5x more severe than what would constitute a wound in our world. We don't assume that the scale of the world is completely different from ours, and that if an earth-human were to teleport into the WFB universe he would find himself towering over entire cities of tiny men who he could bully into providing the Most Enjoyable Wargame Ever. We don't assume that gravity is many times weaker in the WFB universe, and that everybody fights like they're on the moon. We don't assume that Ogres can breathe underwater, or that Dwarf eyes cannot perceive the colour green. Etc. ad infinitum.

Yep, we dont assume anything. You just dont think about it. You dont consider the physics of how dragons actually fly, or how big everyone actually is, or how long a year in the imperial calandar actually is, or any of those details. The trickyest thing when trying to RP a warhammer character (i find) is actually getting around those little details you dont know.

Playing the game we dont look at the range of a bow and think "hang on, why is my range only 4 times the length of this monster". The only way it all works is if you dont question everything, you just assume it all works somehow. You have to avoid seeking for an explaination at all or you start getting into sillyness.


On the other hand

We don't assume that the scale of the world is completely different from ours, and that if an earth-human were to teleport into the WFB universe he would find himself towering over entire cities of tiny men who he could bully into providing the Most Enjoyable Wargame Ever

Is possibly the coolest idea ever....

[The bearded one]

Yep, we dont assume anything. You just dont think about it. You dont consider the physics of how dragons actually fly, or how big everyone actually is, or how long a year in the imperial calandar actually is, or any of those details. The trickyest thing when trying to RP a warhammer character (i find) is actually getting around those little details you dont know.

I think we can actually assume that a lot of stuff such as the laws of physics are similar to our, such as gravity and time (and magic simply mends the gaps to make stuff work that wouldn't exist in our world). Many oddities in this world relative to ours, are elaborated upon as well, such as the fact that there are 2 moons, and that a year in the warhammerworld is a bit longer than on our own. Other things are considered to be similar, such as.. how gunpowder works, or arts and metalworking. The odd stuff is (generally) mentioned but I think, also to make it easier for yourself, you should consider the world to work the same. It provides a referencepoint. If warhammer mentions 'humans', you should think of humans like in our world, not sentient piles of yelly. If a warhammer source says something about an axe or a hammer, it really means an axe or a hammer like we know them.

Playing the game we dont look at the range of a bow and think "hang on, why is my range only 4 times the length of this monster". The only way it all works is if you dont question everything, you just assume it all works somehow. You have to avoid seeking for an explaination at all or you start getting into sillyness.

that might have something to do with it being a tabletop game, and thus needing abstraction to be feasible to play.




How did we get to this point again? We were talking about cannons, weren't we?

[bad dice]

But when people see a need for a change based on balance, as many do in regards to cannons, it doesn't hurt that there are fluffy reasons to support making that change. Nobody, not one single person in this thread, wants to make cannons more inaccurate simply because they are that way in real life. People want to make them inaccurate to reduce their effect on monsters and characters in the metagame, and there happens to be a wonderfully convincing fluff reason to back up such a change.

As a side note, while I generally agree with your stance, it bothers me when people bring magic into the "realism" argument. Magic is realistic in a fictional universe that supports it. Therefore, raising undead is a realistic part of the warhammer universe. A deathlazer that channels magical energy is realistic. A purely mechanical steed or a piece of high tech artillery would not be, since they rely on known quantities to function, and can't play the magic trump card.

Why maby signar guides the cannon we don't know. Like is said it only matters if what happens is so illogical that it breaks immersion.
I don't find cannons being good at shooting monster that immersion breaking. I do hate that they hit both rider and monster tough.

But that is the rules nothing to do whit logic at all.

Also what the hell do we know about physics any way
No one ever solved the doule nature of light properly yet.
Or the Schrödinger cat dilemma, or discovered higs boson.
For all we know magic might be real we just don't know how to make it work.
(ok I could not resist trolling on that but really the human race gives itself to much credit sometimes)

[The Low King]

How did we get to this point again? We were talking about cannons, weren't we?

My point being: You cant say 'a cannon works like this in RL therefore it will work like this in warhammer'

[yabbadabba]

My point being: You cant say 'a cannon works like this in RL therefore it will work like this in warhammer'

Having converted some Empire cannons to fire dowelling I'd rather imagine them firing like that - shooting big lumps of wood across the table top in a lazy arc.

[NTJ2010]

In a world of:
Goat people, horsemen who pray and get a magical defense against attacks scaled by threat, daemonic beings, dinosaur riding pointy eared near immortals, hairy midgets with magic letters, dragon riding jerks with a superiority complex, magic frogs on floating chairs that are worshiped by all sort of aztec lizards, fat guys who have a hand-held cannon that shoots forks and knives, fungus monsters ride pigs and spiders, talking rat-people that have some of the best technology, normal people if you ignore the fact their emperor rides a two headed griffon, skeleton Egyptians that have a flying sphinx, a second group of skeletons that are controlled by vampires of all things, daemon worshiping nordic soldiers who can become tougher by worshiping a god who creates disease, and magical talking trees that kill people; cannons, that's what we argue, the physics of a cannon.

[dutchwarlord]

There is one big issue when choosing a point in the air...
The distance to the target will vary....

And since you can't really gess how gravity is going to work it's impossible to know the distance that way.

[cptcosmic]

I always find that argument rather strange, whats to say the laws of physics work the same way there as here?

You look at a gyrocopter and go 'No way that would work here, but its fantasy'
Look at a mechanical horse....
Look at Empire architecture....
Look at lots of the warmachines......
Clockwork angels....
Blimps...(at least the ones they have there)
Most of the flying creatures....
Im sure there are many other examples.

Why cant you simply look at cannons and think the same thing?

why are you beating the dead horse? I dont care if your cannons would shoot sci-fi hybrid plasma-shell rounds whose energy is powered by fantasy magic to deal damage but it bothers me that cannons are able to shoot something they are not supposed to hit (e.g. a lone character or any kind of monstrous beast/monster behind a hill behind trees on the other side of the table) because the player simply used the template rules in his favor. isnt there a cover throw of 4+ in WH40k? why isnt there such a thing in WH Fantasy, I dont even know. why the cannon hits rider and mount at once, I dont know either.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

What I normally do is as follows:

Select an enemy unit. Check if I can see that enemy unit. Nominate a point in front of the enemy unit. Roll the dice.

Then you're clearly doing it wrong, pippin_nl.

What you do is:

Select a nominated point. Put a marker on the nominated point. Check to see if you can see the nominated point. Roll the dice.

No. "Select a nominated point" is as redundant as "Nominate a selected point". You either select or nominate. This can also be a point in front of an enemy. It could also be a model. It could also be a unit. There's no need for a marker. I check which points I can see before picking one, not after placing some marker.

You guys think that the point where the cannonball is intended to land is the same as the nominated point.

No. I think I nominate a point, and I think the ball's unlikely to land there. You're just confusing things more and more.

[Flash Felix]

Umm, it's been a very long thread (this should be post 697) so I might have missed it if it came up. But how about having forests and hills block LOS...? At the moment they don't mainly because the tabletop models we use aren't high or dense enough to block TLOS. You could buy 30 trees to put into a forest, and that would work within the rules (and look cool) but once a unit moves into the forest, and the trees move to the side of the board, then what? It's the same with hills, that were mostly designed and purchased back when LOS was measured from base to base.

I think that if we accept that forests are much denser than 3-5 trees, and that hills are higher than a man's shoulder, then LOS will be blocked. Making it much easier to get your pricey Dragon Lord into combat without getting a 6 pound iron ball in his spleen.

Then we can keep cannons as they are, and everyone's happy.

[yabbadabba]

Umm, it's been a very long thread (this should be post 697) so I might have missed it if it came up. But how about having forests and hills block LOS...? At the moment they don't mainly because the tabletop models we use aren't high or dense enough to block TLOS. You could buy 30 trees to put into a forest, and that would work within the rules (and look cool) but once a unit moves into the forest, and the trees move to the side of the board, then what? It's the same with hills, that were mostly designed and purchased back when LOS was measured from base to base.

I think that if we accept that forests are much denser than 3-5 trees, and that hills are higher than a man's shoulder, then LOS will be blocked. Making it much easier to get your pricey Dragon Lord into combat without getting a 6 pound iron ball in his spleen.

Then we can keep cannons as they are, and everyone's happy.

I've tried to suggest that. Apparently it might cause armageddon if people try this and the antichrist might rise up to complain to the tournament judges about cheating.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Everyone's free to play terrain as he and his opponent like. We do in fact have quite a lot of real TLoS blocking terrain here, not only solid buildings but woods as well. Entering them makes really no difference to play. You can either put a single model were there's room as a placeholder just as some do when they enter buildings (or APC's in 40k), or you temporarily remove it for ease of play purposes only. Just be a little careful if precision's really important.

[bad dice]

Everyone's free to play terrain as he and his opponent like. We do in fact have quite a lot of real TLoS blocking terrain here, not only solid buildings but woods as well. Entering them makes really no difference to play. You can either put a single model were there's room as a placeholder just as some do when they enter buildings (or APC's in 40k), or you temporarily remove it for ease of play purposes only. Just be a little careful if
precision's really important.

Back in the day i played at a stor that briliant forests .They wher realy dense but had a seetrough plastic surface on top where you could place your models on that worked briliantly.